Grand Champions & (new Title) Supreme Champions

[kelpiesrule]

makes those happy that find the current rules hard.

So who's whinging?

You miss the point.

Some here believe gaining titles should be harder to obtain than simply being gifted for turning up.

I believe a title gain by a dog being placed before maybe a couple of hundred exhibits at breed level is more worthy of the title than one that hasn't been placed in front any.

You obviously don't agree.

that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.

I didnt say that I didnt agree that titles should be harder... but do we seriously need to carry on and on about something that has been decided on? How about we look at it from another's point of view and be a little more open minded... or would we just rather everyone p*ss off out of the showring so we have no competition at all? I have top winning kelpies, yes that win at group and show level, with consistant best of breed wins but not enough competition to crack the 25pt best of breed yet. All I am trying to say is that there will be dogs out there that are exceptional for their breed but are unable to pick up groups. This is usually because judges continually put up the favourite breeds. Honest judges seem to be getting harder and harder to find, but they are out there... it is a matter of being patient til they turn up. I just hate seeing ALL dogs that have titles without group wins lumped in the same box. Seriously, those that are dodgy winners, everyone usually knows about anyway within their own breeds.

[Bohunt]

makes those happy that find the current rules hard.

So who's whinging?

You miss the point.

Some here believe gaining titles should be harder to obtain than simply being gifted for turning up.

I believe a title gain by a dog being placed before maybe a couple of hundred exhibits at breed level is more worthy of the title than one that hasn't been placed in front any.

You obviously don't agree.

that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.

I didnt say that I didnt agree that titles should be harder... but do we seriously need to carry on and on about something that has been decided on? How about we look at it from another's point of view and be a little more open minded... or would we just rather everyone p*ss off out of the showring so we have no competition at all? I have top winning kelpies, yes that win at group and show level, with consistant best of breed wins but not enough competition to crack the 25pt best of breed yet. All I am trying to say is that there will be dogs out there that are exceptional for their breed but are unable to pick up groups. This is usually because judges continually put up the favourite breeds. Honest judges seem to be getting harder and harder to find, but they are out there... it is a matter of being patient til they turn up. I just hate seeing ALL dogs that have titles without group wins lumped in the same box. Seriously, those that are dodgy winners, everyone usually knows about anyway within their own breeds.

I do understand what you are saying and you are venting out of frustration - been there and do completely understand this point. I just sat down many years ago and thought hard about why I show Border Terrier rather than Poodles, Sibes, Staffies etc and realised I showed my breed because it is my great love - that is what it is all about.

We have become so focused on all the 'fluff' that we are losing our souls to it (bit dramatic but making a point here) and I was not about to trade my breed in for some BIGs and BISs. I decided to do everything I could to have the best I could in my chosen heart breed and when I get a BIG or BIS, my heart really sings as I know how hard it is to get there. The harder the Challenge the greater the reward.

This is the price we pay for loving certain breeds and many might deserve a Grand or Supreme title but we have made these choices - ie, having a little brown dog, not being a judge, living in Timbuktu, living in Melbourne. I am sure not going to change anything or compromise for a certificate that really means "what"?

[-Megz-]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

This is why Bonnie the Pug will not be out to get this. She is not in her trim, taut and terrific shape so she can stay on the couch with the other oldies!

[Trisven13]

We have become so focused on all the 'fluff' that we are losing our souls to it (bit dramatic but making a point here) and I was not about to trade my breed in for some BIGs and BISs. I decided to do everything I could to have the best I could in my chosen heart breed and when I get a BIG or BIS, my heart really sings as I know how hard it is to get there. The harder the Challenge the greater the reward.

This is the price we pay for loving certain breeds and many might deserve a Grand or Supreme title but we have made these choices - ie, having a little brown dog, not being a judge, living in Timbuktu, living in Melbourne. I am sure not going to change anything or compromise for a certificate that really means "what"?

Everything you have said here and above is exactly how I feel about my ordinary little orange dogs. Every Class In Group is valuable, every run-off for Group or Runner-Up in Group (okay there have only been 2 ) and every positive comment from a Judge makes me keep going and convinces me that I'm doing the right thing for MY breed. Its not a popular breed yet, it may NEVER be a popular breed but they're my breed and I love them - wouldn't swap 'em for the world.

[Waggy]

I'm more interested in how many entries will appear at the shows that are on in July next year-not many shows that month so bound to be well supported! We might need to take sleeping bags! Show Secretaries will be panicking and Club Treasurers smiling broadly. Great way to keep the show numbers up and I believe they have been flagging recently.

It doesn't matter what the system is - as many have said, not everybody will be happy. 10 BIGs will be easier for some and it is certainly easier in some States - we all know and acknowledge that. No-one will surely disagree that showing a Terrier to BIG in Victoria is an easy task so expect visitors, other States. Other Groups will have the same stories in certain States. It is a reality and people are well entitled to do so without being accused of Petrol Titles. The people in the areas that have less competition (if no-one was allowed to travel) would be equally offended if they were accused of having 'poor man titles' because they did it with 30 dogs of mediocre quality in the Group.

It is what it is, folks and won't get any easier for anyone - even for the 'popular dogs/breeds/exhibitors, as they always have a like soul to also get past for BIG.

In answer to the minority breed issue. My breed certainly is not one that is considered a dead cert for BIG however I have already qualified my young boy for the Supreme Title (albeit a few remaining Grand points) and I don't show all year, am not a judge and do not move in political circles. I have another life which I always enjoy and will get there - haven't bothered rushing and don't need the first/youngest title to go with it. Much of this is ego driven and sometimes we can lose sight of what is most important - our BREED.

Be happy and good luck winning those BIG and CCs - I will certainly be having a red hot go at it and continue to enjoy being out there with my dogs otherwise I will hang up my leads.

Well said!!!!!

[SparkyTansy]

Very well said Bohunt.

[morsha_68]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

My little 10 year old bitch still loves to show and is still in great show condition she won BOB at Melb Royal this year ,I do not show her every weekend maybe 4/5 times a year .But anyone who knows this little Bitch of mine (Tazma) will tell you that she dose not look or act like she is 10 years old..

[Trisven13]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

My little 10 year old bitch still loves to show and is still in great show condition she won BOB at Melb Royal this year ,I do not show her every weekend maybe 4/5 times a year .But anyone who knows this little Bitch of mine (Tazma) will tell you that she dose not look or act like she is 10 years old..

No and bitch is about right for her....

[Joan of Arc]

[

My little 10 year old bitch still loves to show and is still in great show condition she won BOB at Melb Royal this year ,I do not show her every weekend maybe 4/5 times a year .But anyone who knows this little Bitch of mine (Tazma) will tell you that she dose not look or act like she is 10 years old..

I would have to support you there Morsha..Tazma is in top condition..

she is very lively, loves to show and goes around the ring like a much younger dog... she would easily pass for a 6 -7 yr old...

In fact I would say there are much younger dogs than her, of many breeds, who are not in as good a condition as her...

Like Trisven I have a breed, she doesnt often have competiion in her breed, but has successfully competed against them when they are there. Her breed doesnt often win BIG, but she has been shortlisted twice for BIG and has won several classes in group. She already has more than sufficient points for her title but had to wait for her first birthday and then acquire the magic 25 pts... and I treasure every point, every class in group and her 1 puppy in show And we are long way from even thinking about a Gr Ch or Supreme Ch...

However, I understand the concerns of the other posters but - it is what it is and we live with it...:D

[morsha_68]

Thanks Joan of Arc.

I, as you know also have a RARE breed and have done very well with my kids and 99.9% of the time I only have myself for competition so when you do well at group and show level it makes you feel proud..

Edited November 23, 2011 by morsha_68

[TessnSean]

makes those happy that find the current rules hard.

So who's whinging?

You miss the point.

Some here believe gaining titles should be harder to obtain than simply being gifted for turning up.

I believe a title gain by a dog being placed before maybe a couple of hundred exhibits at breed level is more worthy of the title than one that hasn't been placed in front any.

You obviously don't agree.

that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.

I didnt say that I didnt agree that titles should be harder... but do we seriously need to carry on and on about something that has been decided on? How about we look at it from another's point of view and be a little more open minded... or would we just rather everyone p*ss off out of the showring so we have no competition at all? I have top winning kelpies, yes that win at group and show level, with consistant best of breed wins but not enough competition to crack the 25pt best of breed yet. All I am trying to say is that there will be dogs out there that are exceptional for their breed but are unable to pick up groups. This is usually because judges continually put up the favourite breeds. Honest judges seem to be getting harder and harder to find, but they are out there... it is a matter of being patient til they turn up. I just hate seeing ALL dogs that have titles without group wins lumped in the same box. Seriously, those that are dodgy winners, everyone usually knows about anyway within their own breeds.

I do understand what you are saying and you are venting out of frustration - been there and do completely understand this point. I just sat down many years ago and thought hard about why I show Border Terrier rather than Poodles, Sibes, Staffies etc and realised I showed my breed because it is my great love - that is what it is all about.

We have become so focused on all the 'fluff' that we are losing our souls to it (bit dramatic but making a point here) and I was not about to trade my breed in for some BIGs and BISs. I decided to do everything I could to have the best I could in my chosen heart breed and when I get a BIG or BIS, my heart really sings as I know how hard it is to get there. The harder the Challenge the greater the reward.

This is the price we pay for loving certain breeds and many might deserve a Grand or Supreme title but we have made these choices - ie, having a little brown dog, not being a judge, living in Timbuktu, living in Melbourne. I am sure not going to change anything or compromise for a certificate that really means "what"?

Beautifully said Bohunt. I have seen your dogs often and the love of your breed in your posts shows ten fold when you see you with them in person.

This thread is same old, same old. Those who want to keep it locked down and massively difficult to get any award along with those who dont want their rare breeds spoken of in such derogative fashion. Closely followed by the scoffing braggarts who boast how easy it is for them to get a Grand with their rare breed so what is all the whinging about. Funny how you can start off admiring people from their posts and after post 3643 listing just how amazing they are personally, you go off them quite a lot.

Easy solution. Ban showing any dog breed that cannot attract enough entries for a 25 point challenge. Only give out points to those breeds and get rid of the rest. Only dogs with enough numbers can compete for any championship or Grand award. Totally ridiculous? Of course it is but in a perverse kind of way, that is exactly the discrimination a lot of you are throwing at those who show rare or numerically small competing breeds. It is what it is. Statistics from the show rings Australia wide prove that the move to BIS, BIG, 25 point challenges was a bad and unpopular move.

[Silverblue]

BUT the BISS didn't count towards her GR CH under the old rules, so how is that fair ?

Probably because a BISS is really a BOB, & therefore fell under the 25 point requirement rule.

Cant you have multiple breed specialties? These wouldn't have been a BOB, they would have beaten other (albeit) related breeds....

There are actually 5 different breeds in the Rarer Spaniel club, so no it wasn't just a BOB !!!

Have read all the fors & againsts, & yes it is the same old hash over all the time, Like I said, Personally I am happy the rules have changed, You only have to look at the Gundog group here in Victoria, It is full of top quality dogs, Many of which are in the top for overall point score, Very hard to get past these dogs, they are wonderful, top quality dogs.

[Joan of Arc]

Thanks Joan of Arc.

I, as you know also have a RARE breed and have done very well with my kids and 99.9% of the time I only have myself for competition so when you do well at group and show level it makes you feel proud..

Hahahahaaaa... thanks Morsha for pointing out that omission on my part... yes she is a RARE breed....I totally agree with you, that we rarely have competition, have both done well against the competition when it is present at breed level... but both breeds have been very well at group level (your kids a little better than my girl) and I cherish every little win, every little statemetn for the judge....because so many people told me 'DON'T GET ONE OF THEM, THEY NEVER WIN' my absolute favourite expression now is

I'LL HAVE THE CLUMBER PLEASE!!!'

And one day - hopefully we will hear it at group level for BIG... but as Silverblue has stated - in Vic (and we are border exhibitors) the gundog group is very very strong and there are some spectacular animals in our group and so for a junior of a rare breed a BIG would be rare itself.... I am not complaining - I love her to bits I am just stating a fact....

[kelpiesrule]

makes those happy that find the current rules hard.

So who's whinging?

You miss the point.

Some here believe gaining titles should be harder to obtain than simply being gifted for turning up.

I believe a title gain by a dog being placed before maybe a couple of hundred exhibits at breed level is more worthy of the title than one that hasn't been placed in front any.

You obviously don't agree.

that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.

I didnt say that I didnt agree that titles should be harder... but do we seriously need to carry on and on about something that has been decided on? How about we look at it from another's point of view and be a little more open minded... or would we just rather everyone p*ss off out of the showring so we have no competition at all? I have top winning kelpies, yes that win at group and show level, with consistant best of breed wins but not enough competition to crack the 25pt best of breed yet. All I am trying to say is that there will be dogs out there that are exceptional for their breed but are unable to pick up groups. This is usually because judges continually put up the favourite breeds. Honest judges seem to be getting harder and harder to find, but they are out there... it is a matter of being patient til they turn up. I just hate seeing ALL dogs that have titles without group wins lumped in the same box. Seriously, those that are dodgy winners, everyone usually knows about anyway within their own breeds.

I do understand what you are saying and you are venting out of frustration - been there and do completely understand this point. I just sat down many years ago and thought hard about why I show Border Terrier rather than Poodles, Sibes, Staffies etc and realised I showed my breed because it is my great love - that is what it is all about.

We have become so focused on all the 'fluff' that we are losing our souls to it (bit dramatic but making a point here) and I was not about to trade my breed in for some BIGs and BISs. I decided to do everything I could to have the best I could in my chosen heart breed and when I get a BIG or BIS, my heart really sings as I know how hard it is to get there. The harder the Challenge the greater the reward.

This is the price we pay for loving certain breeds and many might deserve a Grand or Supreme title but we have made these choices - ie, having a little brown dog, not being a judge, living in Timbuktu, living in Melbourne. I am sure not going to change anything or compromise for a certificate that really means "what"?

Beautifully said Bohunt. I have seen your dogs often and the love of your breed in your posts shows ten fold when you see you with them in person.

This thread is same old, same old. Those who want to keep it locked down and massively difficult to get any award along with those who dont want their rare breeds spoken of in such derogative fashion. Closely followed by the scoffing braggarts who boast how easy it is for them to get a Grand with their rare breed so what is all the whinging about. Funny how you can start off admiring people from their posts and after post 3643 listing just how amazing they are personally, you go off them quite a lot.

Easy solution. Ban showing any dog breed that cannot attract enough entries for a 25 point challenge. Only give out points to those breeds and get rid of the rest. Only dogs with enough numbers can compete for any championship or Grand award. Totally ridiculous? Of course it is but in a perverse kind of way, that is exactly the discrimination a lot of you are throwing at those who show rare or numerically small competing breeds. It is what it is. Statistics from the show rings Australia wide prove that the move to BIS, BIG, 25 point challenges was a bad and unpopular move.

Bohunt & TessnSean... thank you, nicely said

[-Megz-]

Ahhh so it's possible that at this time in Vic that those rare "outstanding" dogs have been found. This can happen in many breeds, numerically the odds are better in the bigger breeds but the phenomenon on Victoria is exactly what the Grand Champion title is all about to me. You should have to beat the best, those outstanding specimens of their breed, before being able to call your dog a Grand Champion.

[Shaar]

Ahhh so it's possible that at this time in Vic that those rare "outstanding" dogs have been found. This can happen in many breeds, numerically the odds are better in the bigger breeds but the phenomenon on Victoria is exactly what the Grand Champion title is all about to me. You should have to beat the best, those outstanding specimens of their breed, before being able to call your dog a Grand Champion.

^ This.

[mirawee]

Out of interest how many shows do Qld, Vic and NSW have in a year? And how many different events on a weekend?

I know Tasmania, WA, NT and SA? tend to only have one show whether it is country or metro. And in WA at least there are more weekends with only 1 (or no) shows than there are with 2 shows and we don't have any 3 show weekends.

[Havasneeze]

Out of interest how many shows do Qld, Vic and NSW have in a year? And how many different events on a weekend?

I know Tasmania, WA, NT and SA? tend to only have one show whether it is country or metro. And in WA at least there are more weekends with only 1 (or no) shows than there are with 2 shows and we don't have any 3 show weekends.

In NSW, we generally have choices each weekend, though they do tend to involve a fair bit of travelling... also as the ACT is so close (3 hours drive) we also have those to choose from, but not every weekend

[Aziah]

Out of interest how many shows do Qld, Vic and NSW have in a year? And how many different events on a weekend?

I know Tasmania, WA, NT and SA? tend to only have one show whether it is country or metro. And in WA at least there are more weekends with only 1 (or no) shows than there are with 2 shows and we don't have any 3 show weekends.

I just did a count (+- here and there to allow for Ag shows that aren't listed and run or those that are listed and don't run) NSW has 550 Championship shows scheduled for 2012 (including Specialties).

[SparkyTansy]

Out of interest how many shows do Qld, Vic and NSW have in a year? And how many different events on a weekend?

I know Tasmania, WA, NT and SA? tend to only have one show whether it is country or metro. And in WA at least there are more weekends with only 1 (or no) shows than there are with 2 shows and we don't have any 3 show weekends.

I just did a count (+- here and there to allow for Ag shows that aren't listed and run or those that are listed and don't run) NSW has 550 Championship shows scheduled for 2012 (including Specialties).

Edited November 24, 2011 by SparkyTansy