Grand Champions & (new Title) Supreme Champions

[yarracully]

But there is talks of making the "Champion" title harder? But it has to be achievable, however for example putting a 25 Point rule to get champion, that's like most dogs have to win a Specialty Best of Breed or Best in Show to attain it, and on one front cover of Dogs News Australia, there are very few breeds now that can obtain 25 Points! One I know of is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, if you were to show say at KCC.

But one could say in order to attain their title, the said dog could have to either achieve a Class in Group at All Breeds, or a Class in Show at Specialty (At Championship show only for both). Afterall, you would have a certificate obtained stating your dog has obtained a higher award than a Challenge Certificate. That could weed out dogs getting titles if they can't win at Group or Show level. Just a thought here.

I enjoy reading this topic, it's very thought provoking!

Not all states give a certificate for class in group. I regularly show in three states and your state is the only one that I have seen that gives certificates for class in group. Also not all breeds have a specialty. Thats why a BIS at a specialty was not accepted under the grand requirements currently in place ubtil next year.

[nabs]

This 25 point rule has only come in over the last 10 years or so. Before then it was 100 points and you got your championship. No age restriction. We had bigger entries back then. Plenty of dogs get their title and are not good representatives of the breed what ever age they get it. Gaining 25 points after 12 months is not going to change a dog who may turn "heavy" by two years!!! It worked for a long time before the ANKC decided to fiddle with everything.

In my breed, there are lots of big dogs - that look within standard at 12 months, but by 24 months, they 'blow out' and get heavy and untypey. For these dogs, I would like them to be awarded 25 points after 12 months in order to gain their title.

I don't really mind about grand titles either way.

This- a coated breed where the dog is still in puppy coat could get its title before you have a chance to see if it has correct coat. Or what about other breeds where mouths go wry at 10months?

I think removing the 12mth requirement will mean an even faster turn around for some people with their dogs which means that as a breeder I don't get to see how these puppies turn out at 12mths of age. Makes selecting studs even more difficult if you can't track their progeny.

[Miss B]

Not all states give a certificate for class in group.

My bitch has had 30 x class in group wins this year, and not one single certificate - I didn't even know they existed!

As far as the new rules go - doesn't really bother me either way. It's impossible to please everyone.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Miss B

[angelsun]

I have no issues with the changes. This year, we have only one in my breed that has obtained a group sin. We have one that has obtained a runner up. Last year, there were none, the year before there was one that got a runner up and only because of (in my opinion) favoured judging practices.

We don't have a breed that generally is rewarded in group. Yes it happens, but we don't seem to be seen much, jammed between the Dobe and a Neo and constantly compared to the former, when we are nothing the same but the judge clearly can't figure out why our topline isn't flat and level!!

We do ok in the class in group competition however and occasionaly pick up a class in show. We have in the past had some outstanding examples of the breed.. there are a few kicking around at the moment, but yes...work to be done including what I own myself.....but when many judges comment first up that they just don't see them much, or that they haven't seen one in years, or when you head in for sweeps and are told you are too far back and should be up behind the Fox Terrier.....you gotta know that the judge hasn't a clue what breed you have unless the steward yells it out.

[stone]

But one could say in order to attain their title, the said dog could have to either achieve a Class in Group at All Breeds, or a Class in Show at Specialty (At Championship show only for both). Afterall, you would have a certificate obtained stating your dog has obtained a higher award than a Challenge Certificate. That could weed out dogs getting titles if they can't win at Group or Show level. Just a thought here.

A BIG class award can be gained without any competition.

And considering claims here some specialty shows are too small for a BIS 25 point challenge it would be fair to assume a BIS class could also be attained without be placed before another entry.

I am surprised & disappointed, at the number of people distraught should the easy path to championship status be made more than a gift.

Why not just go for points to be awarded for entering without the inconvienience of having to attend.

Simply include a S.S.A.E & they can post the CC out.

Anthony Mundine claims 3 world championships but he has never beaten a reigning title holder.

Cedibility?

Zero.

[angelsun]

And the bottom line of all this is simply, if you don't like to compete and attempt to attain these goals....stay home (and stop whining)

I once had the top GP in the country....never met another of his breed...attained all his points for title out of group placements....(we have four) does his record then, because he never beat another of his breed, be diminished? He beat BIS poodles, schipperke's etc....the judges didn't have to reward him in the group as there were plenty of others there to select....He obtained a BIS without (to that point) competing against anything in his breed.....we didn't have any breed specialty event. We don't have here, a breed specific specialty, and the club we have that offers shows (with three pinscher breeds) doesn't offer 25 point challenges due to lack of numbers.....which doesn't mean lack of competition, or competativeness.

It's not a case of being easier....it's a case of being realistic in my opinion. In saying that, I have no real aspirations to campaign a dog to a Grand. In the long run, no one really cares....even those in the breed other than the owner/shower of the dog in question.

[stone]

He obtained a BIS without (to that point) competing against anything in his breed.....

Congrats,

Job done.

Thank you for your support.

[Dracdog]

I spoke to Dogs Qld yesterday about this and was told that there was definatley no change to the 25 point rule for Aust Champ titles

NOTE that the 25 points after the age of 12 months is no longer required ;)

[Silverblue]

You know what I am also sick of hearing people go on about "If a rare breed is good enough it will win a BIG or BIS "

NO they won't until judges can see past the more popular breeds in our group.

I know it has happened & good on those people that have won, BUT on the whole it can be very hard to win with a rarer breed.

I for one am happy to see the regulations revert back, hopefully it will keep more people in the sport !!!

My Welsh Springer is a BISS winner & Royal CC winner, but you know what, even a our specialities, sometime it is hard to get a 25 point CC, there just aren't many Rarer Spaniels out there, this one was a 25 point CC, BUT the BISS didn't count towards her GR CH under the old rules, so how is that fair ?

[GRD]

I spoke to Dogs Qld yesterday about this and was told that there was definatley no change to the 25 point rule for Aust Champ titles

NOTE that the 25 points after the age of 12 months is no longer required ;)

The office staff may not have had access to the summary or minutes of the ANKC meeting, but as this change does not come in to effect until 1/1/12 they still have time to catch up.

So you can see where the regulation has been amended, From the summary - http://www.ankc.org.au/Conference-Summary-2009.aspx 4 * ANKC Ltd Regulations Part 5 - Amendments

It was resolved to amend/add the following sections/clauses in Regulations Part 5:• Amend Clause 7.7;

7.7 Championship Points System (05/99) (11/11)

The owner of a dog registered with the ANKC Ltd which:

(a) wins not fewer than four Challenge Certificates/Best of Breed Certificates under not fewer than four different Judges at four different exhibitions; and (10/99)

.

(b) gains a total of 100 points may apply for such dog to be known as a Champion.

Points shall be allotted for exhibits six (6) months of age and over exhibited in a General Class as follows:

The old 7.7

7.7 Championship Points System (05/99)

The owner of a dog registered with the ANKC Ltd which:

(a) wins not fewer than four Challenge Certificates/Best of Breed Certificates under not fewer than four different Judges at four different exhibitions; and (10/99)

(b) gains a total of 100 points, of which twenty five (25) of these points are gained after the age of twelve (12) months; may apply for such dog to be known as a Champion.

Graham

[stone]

BUT the BISS didn't count towards her GR CH under the old rules, so how is that fair ?

Probably because a BISS is really a BOB, & therefore fell under the 25 point requirement rule.

[Jumabaar]

BUT the BISS didn't count towards her GR CH under the old rules, so how is that fair ?

Probably because a BISS is really a BOB, & therefore fell under the 25 point requirement rule.

Cant you have multiple breed specialties? These wouldn't have been a BOB, they would have beaten other (albeit) related breeds....

[Dracdog]

I spoke to Dogs Qld yesterday about this and was told that there was definatley no change to the 25 point rule for Aust Champ titles

NOTE that the 25 points after the age of 12 months is no longer required ;)

The office staff may not have had access to the summary or minutes of the ANKC meeting, but as this change does not come in to effect until 1/1/12 they still have time to catch up.

So you can see where the regulation has been amended, From the summary - http://www.ankc.org.au/Conference-Summary-2009.aspx 4 * ANKC Ltd Regulations Part 5 - Amendments

It was resolved to amend/add the following sections/clauses in Regulations Part 5:• Amend Clause 7.7;

7.7 Championship Points System (05/99) (11/11)

The owner of a dog registered with the ANKC Ltd which:

(a) wins not fewer than four Challenge Certificates/Best of Breed Certificates under not fewer than four different Judges at four different exhibitions; and (10/99)

.

(b) gains a total of 100 points may apply for such dog to be known as a Champion.

Points shall be allotted for exhibits six (6) months of age and over exhibited in a General Class as follows:

The old 7.7

7.7 Championship Points System (05/99)

The owner of a dog registered with the ANKC Ltd which:

(a) wins not fewer than four Challenge Certificates/Best of Breed Certificates under not fewer than four different Judges at four different exhibitions; and (10/99)

(b) gains a total of 100 points, of which twenty five (25) of these points are gained after the age of twelve (12) months; may apply for such dog to be known as a Champion.

Graham

That may be so but isn't it the old rule nothing is official until the office is notified and the changes published in the magazine

[GRD]

That may be so but isn't it the old rule nothing is official until the office is notified and the changes published in the magazine

All State offices were notified at 1.32pm (EST)21/11/11, but individual staff may be aware of the notification. As each state has a different lead time for publication in their journals, there is an implentation date of 1/1/12 unless otherwise noted. The Supreme Champion for instance does not come in until 1/7/12, changes to breeding regulations must have at least 12 months from approval until implementation.

[SwaY]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

[WreckitWhippet]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

[Aziah]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

No doubt it will happen!

[GRD]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

Thats why some of us pushed for a higher additional qualification, but the numbers were against us.

Lets hope that the judges see it for what it is and with hold challenges for unworthy specimens.

[WreckitWhippet]

I just hope the owners of dogs who are eligable for the Supreme Champion, don't bring out retired dogs just to get the final CC, if they are not in top shape.

you know they are going to come out of the woodwork, no matter what they look like , the good, the bad and the ugly. They'll get their CC and disappear again

Thats why some of us pushed for a higher additional qualification, but the numbers were against us.

Lets hope that the judges see it for what it is and with hold challenges for unworthy specimens.

I doubt it, given there are very few judges that have the balls to refuse a challenge, let alone the multi BIG, BIS dogs , that they've probably seen in their prime

Edited November 23, 2011 by Pav Lova

[Bohunt]

I'm more interested in how many entries will appear at the shows that are on in July next year-not many shows that month so bound to be well supported! We might need to take sleeping bags! Show Secretaries will be panicking and Club Treasurers smiling broadly. Great way to keep the show numbers up and I believe they have been flagging recently.

It doesn't matter what the system is - as many have said, not everybody will be happy. 10 BIGs will be easier for some and it is certainly easier in some States - we all know and acknowledge that. No-one will surely disagree that showing a Terrier to BIG in Victoria is an easy task so expect visitors, other States. Other Groups will have the same stories in certain States. It is a reality and people are well entitled to do so without being accused of Petrol Titles. The people in the areas that have less competition (if no-one was allowed to travel) would be equally offended if they were accused of having 'poor man titles' because they did it with 30 dogs of mediocre quality in the Group.

It is what it is, folks and won't get any easier for anyone - even for the 'popular dogs/breeds/exhibitors, as they always have a like soul to also get past for BIG.

In answer to the minority breed issue. My breed certainly is not one that is considered a dead cert for BIG however I have already qualified my young boy for the Supreme Title (albeit a few remaining Grand points) and I don't show all year, am not a judge and do not move in political circles. I have another life which I always enjoy and will get there - haven't bothered rushing and don't need the first/youngest title to go with it. Much of this is ego driven and sometimes we can lose sight of what is most important - our BREED.

Be happy and good luck winning those BIG and CCs - I will certainly be having a red hot go at it and continue to enjoy being out there with my dogs otherwise I will hang up my leads.