Agility Poll

[leopuppy04]

If I've built sufficient value in taking a jump then they should take what I point them at.

If they don't, then there is a reason why they haven't taken the jump - highly likely my handling.

So no I don't make them go back - there's no point.

Seeing as it's always my fault, in training I will sometimes redo the jump but ONLY after at least giving a verbal marker (and preferably a food reward from my pocket) for doing exactly what I told him initially. I make a HUGE deal about how wonderful he is and keep my body language really positive - no dropped shoulders but keep engaging with him. In a trial I generally keep running unless the jump is pivotal for doing the next sequence. Again I mark with a "yes!" and lots of "good boys" which keeps Zig's motivation high. Last week at training we had a very tough layered turn with tempting off course jumps. I pulled Zig off too early and he did exactly as I'd asked - instead of being disappointed I whooped like an idiot and said to the instructor "how brilliant was that!!!" as I shovelled treats down Zig's throat She laughed in understanding and said "yep, I'd take that too" ;)

ETA: Em is only a baby so we are just starting sequences. If she misses something I keep it light, fix my body language, make it easier, try it again and HUGE celebration when she gets it. I often say something silly when the dogs miss something eg "oh you poor dog with such a silly Mama" which ensures I keep the mood light and remember who's fault it is.

I'm pretty much the same. I find it is pretty demotivating for the dogs to go back, so unless I'm going to 'go back' in training and we are practicing that particular sequence, I don't put them back over. It's usually my own fault from handling and I HATE watching dogs get slower and slower and more unsure because their owner turns them around and puts them back over a jump because the dog missed it/ mucked it up and they are now already 3 obstacles ahead . I'd rather keep the smooth flow of the run happening, come back, and work on that little sequence on the next go

[J...]

But if you miss a jump is that a DQ/NQ anyway?

I though you needed to go completely clear to get a Q?

I was always told to take the dog back and make it redo the jump, but from now on I won't, I can see it is quite demotivating for my dog and due to my mistake anyway.

From my understanding - if you miss a jump, it is a DQ because you went off course.

If you miss a jump and go back and redo it (and the dog hasn't taken another jump or obstacle instead causing it to DQ by going off course) then if you go back and do it it is a refusal/fault and you end up with a NQ.

Because I don't have anything riding on it, I don't care if I DQ or NQ, to me it isn't a Q! So I will try to do whatever will keep my dog's motivation up

If you go past a jump and continue onto the next obstacle and take that, then you're DQ'd.

If you miss a jump/obstacle by passing the plain of that obstacle then technically it's a refusal and thus an NQ. You can go back and do that obstacle in correct order but you've still incurred the refusal.

That said, I have seen YouTube videos of dogs here in Australia clearly passing the obstacle plain and not being called a refusal. We have judges here in Vic who will call a refusal for a badly timed head check. But that's an entire thread on it's own ;)

[Vickie]

If you miss a jump/obstacle by passing the plain of that obstacle then technically it's a refusal and thus an NQ. You can go back and do that obstacle in correct order but you've still incurred the refusal.

That said, I have seen YouTube videos of dogs here in Australia clearly passing the obstacle plain and not being called a refusal. We have judges here in Vic who will call a refusal for a badly timed head check. But that's an entire thread on it's own ;)

There is technically no refusal plane mentioned in the new rules, other than for the table.

Regarding jumps, the rules now say a refusal is called if:

The dog fails to make an attempt at the obstacle

When approaching, the turns away or stops

When attempting, the dog fails to pass between the uprights.

It's all still so General to me. I wish they had taken the opportunity to fix this rule & make it less open to individual juges interpretation.

I still get annoyed that a focussed dog can be given a refusal for a quick head check and yet the dogs who spin the whole way around the course & the ones who are unfocussed & do zoomies or leave the ring can technically still (and do) run clear.

[pie]

Yeah I agree with you there Vickie.

That's interesting - it means under the new rules trixies first JD run did have a refusal in it - she turned towards me instead of taking the jump and I turned around and put her back over and carried on - the judge didn't call it a refusal because she hadn't passed the plane of the jump and I hadn't told her to take it. I still count it as a refusal in my mind and felt like a bit of a cheater pants - lol but I had the only dog in my height.

The new rules are currently in effect aren't they?

Edited November 24, 2011 by amypie

[ness]

I had one like that under the old rules in novice which I felt should have been a refusal but wasn't called. You will probably also find the judges are somewhat lenient on refusals in novice anyway amypie. They tend to give the handler and dog the benefit of the doubt especially on a round that is otherwise clear.

[kelpiechick]

There is technically no refusal plane mentioned in the new rules, other than for the table.

Regarding jumps, the rules now say a refusal is called if:

The dog fails to make an attempt at the obstacle

Which would also include passing the active plane of an obstacle, even if it doesn't specifically mention it.

I agree that it is badly worded. I also dislike the refusal rule, especially after trialling interstate a few months ago and seeing what doesn't get called compared to Victoria. There was a massive difference.

Although I'm not a fan of NADAC agility, I think they got it right in regard to refusals, not pinged, just time wasting. Let's face it, if you have a refusal in Masters Jumping you pretty much aren't going to make time anyway, especially with some of the times that seem to get applied to courses lately.

The rule is way too grey and open to interpretation (or misinterpretation) for my liking no matter how they word it.

[Podengo]

With the Standard Schnauzer... No, never... He needs to keep moving, and taking him back to put over a jump again is going to make him frustrated and shut down... or frustrated and try to bite me!

With the Border Collie... Yes, most of the time.

[RubyStar]

But if you miss a jump is that a DQ/NQ anyway?

I though you needed to go completely clear to get a Q?

I was always told to take the dog back and make it redo the jump, but from now on I won't, I can see it is quite demotivating for my dog and due to my mistake anyway.

From my understanding - if you miss a jump, it is a DQ because you went off course.

If you miss a jump and go back and redo it (and the dog hasn't taken another jump or obstacle instead causing it to DQ by going off course) then if you go back and do it it is a refusal/fault and you end up with a NQ.

Because I don't have anything riding on it, I don't care if I DQ or NQ, to me it isn't a Q! So I will try to do whatever will keep my dog's motivation up

If you go past a jump and continue onto the next obstacle and take that, then you're DQ'd.

If you miss a jump/obstacle by passing the plain of that obstacle then technically it's a refusal and thus an NQ. You can go back and do that obstacle in correct order but you've still incurred the refusal.

Not trying to be nitpicky, but isn't that what I said (in a roundabout kinda way)? If it didn't come across that way, it's what I was trying to describe, sorry

Edit: just reread what I wrote and while I was trying to describe what you said, you described it so much clearer

Edited November 25, 2011 by RubyStar

[RubyStar]

Yeah I agree with you there Vickie.

That's interesting - it means under the new rules trixies first JD run did have a refusal in it - she turned towards me instead of taking the jump and I turned around and put her back over and carried on - the judge didn't call it a refusal because she hadn't passed the plane of the jump and I hadn't told her to take it. I still count it as a refusal in my mind and felt like a bit of a cheater pants - lol but I had the only dog in my height.

The new rules are currently in effect aren't they?

When I watched your run I thought it was a refusal. When you got a Q card I was surprised (but pleased for you!) That particular judge is quite leanient so I am not surprised he didn't call it. I had Ruby run past the weaves (not parallel to them though) to say hello to that judge, called her back, put her through them and the only thing she got pinged for on that course was a missed A-Frame contact and a knocked bar. No refusals. He tends to be quite leanient with weaves I've noticed, especially to novice people. I can't remember exactly what happened but I saw someone stuff their start up, and he actually let them go back and start all over again, incurring no penalty. I've had another judge not call Millie a refusal for approaching a jump and me calling her back to get her over it properly, while I did something similar approaching a broad jump once (she hadn't passed it yet) and the judge warned me that some judges would call me up on doing that. So much variation when we have rules in place

[pie]

I spoke to him about it when the run was over and he told me it was clear and his reasons for not calling it a refusal - which I thought were fair enough and would've been okay under the old rules, but obviously not under the new rules it turns out.

The new rules are currently in force aren't they?

I have no problem with dogs being allowed to start again if they have run around the first jump in novice, the timing gates quite often throw them (a judge let me do this in Kyzer's 2nd novice trial) I have seen quite a few judges do it. All of that leniency tends to dry up by Excellent as it should really.

I do think if a dog leaves the ring it should be a DQ though

Back on topic though I was keeping this poll in mind last night at training. I was running a jumping course that was set up, what I seem to do is if we have a problem and miss a jump I finish with a reward (praise and maybe a small treat), then start again 2 or three jumps behind where the problem was, we tended to succeed on the second go so big party) the dog didn't shut down, she just seemed to think we were doing sequences (which we basically were - breaking it down into bits) in a regular trial though I would still aim to keep running. A refusal is as good as a DQ in a normal run

Edited November 25, 2011 by amypie