Skruffy n Flea Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 percentages of inter alia crude protein, crude fats, ash content, fibre! what does all that actually mean? by virtue that dry and processed is [apparently] nutritionally balanced, i read somewhere, way back, that you shouldn't add raw meat [to dry or cooked/processed] because it buggers up the nutritional balance --- and then there's those that believe that mixing raw with dry is inappropriate anyway because the enzymes required in the gut to process raw is vastly different to those enzymes that break down dry/processed/cooked food! can anyone categorically say: what are the correct levels, across the board, for balanced nutrition? if i'm feeding a diet consisting of dry food and raw meat, what percentage of protein [in combination but fed separately] should one feed to attain optimum nutrition? how does one factor raw veg into that equation? i work in grammage [is that even a word!?!?] BUT a vet nutritionist tells me to feed in kil/cal contents! !??!? is there anyone out there who knows the formula? thanks, i would really appreciate the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I have been wondering this myself, it seems to more I read the more confused I get. Hoping someone can provide us with an answer. ;) I did find a table published online of the recommended daily amounts for protiens/vitamins/minerals etc. http://rdafordogs.blogspot.com/ That's what I've found, no idea on the acuracy though. But I've been messing around with these figures as a baseline anyway. Using a nutrional data website I've been trying to build up a recipe for a balanced BARF pattie. And .. it's damn hard. *disclaimer, this is just me doing things for my own curiosity, I don't claim to be any kind of expert in the field* Have a look here though, you can convert your 'grams' to kil/cal. I love this website http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/739/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Esky I am also trying to work out a nice recipe for my dog he was better stomach wise on all raw when we did the elimination diet but it wasn't balanced so now I need to work out a formula that suits him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 The best sources to read on this topic are Monica Segal's two books K9 Kitchen and Optimal Nutrition. They're easy to read and have all the formulas for number crunching and working out kilo/cals etc. You can add extras to dry, I think Monical Segal says no more than 1 third of the meal, or you will disrupt the balance (I would have to check that though, as that is on memory and may not be correct). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks for those Zayda_asher! Do they have recipes, or just explain the other side of things? WHich would be the best one to read first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks for those Zayda_asher! Do they have recipes, or just explain the other side of things? WHich would be the best one to read first? No worries It's good to read them both together, they cover some similar ground, but complement each other well. I would probably pick K9 Kitchen first if you could only get one. But if you want to crunch your own numbers, then you want Optimal Nutrition as she got permision to reprint the NRC nutritional requirements for adult dogs. I think there are a couple of recipes as examples in each one, but one of the things you will learn is that each dog is individual and does best on a diet tailored to them, so she doesn't give a lot of recieps. If you look at her site though, there are a couple of pamphlets that have some general recipes in them and she does have some breed specific pamphlets too that address some of the common health issues in particular breeds and what you can do to help prevent those occurring, address them if they have occurred, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 I have been wondering this myself, it seems to more I read the more confused I get. Hoping someone can provide us with an answer. ;) I did find a table published online of the recommended daily amounts for protiens/vitamins/minerals etc. http://rdafordogs.blogspot.com/ That's what I've found, no idea on the acuracy though. But I've been messing around with these figures as a baseline anyway. Using a nutrional data website I've been trying to build up a recipe for a balanced BARF pattie. And .. it's damn hard. *disclaimer, this is just me doing things for my own curiosity, I don't claim to be any kind of expert in the field* Have a look here though, you can convert your 'grams' to kil/cal. I love this website http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/739/2 holy crap! that's some serious number-crunching right there! i just had a tinker with the ND site and, comparing the results of some foods to the info provided in the RDA site, i think i can make some sense of it all! thanks for the links esky and you're exactly right, using the info as a baseline is a damn good start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 thanks zayda_asher for the links and the information! The best sources to read on this topic are Monica Segal's two books K9 Kitchen and Optimal Nutrition. They're easy to read and have all the formulas for number crunching and working out kilo/cals etc. You can add extras to dry, I think Monical Segal says no more than 1 third of the meal, or you will disrupt the balance (I would have to check that though, as that is on memory and may not be correct). just out of curiosity, does that include raw vegies!??! i add about 20g raw veg to their 30g dry and if that is disruptive then i'd need to stop it and before the books arrive. Thanks for those Zayda_asher! Do they have recipes, or just explain the other side of things? WHich would be the best one to read first? No worries It's good to read them both together, they cover some similar ground, but complement each other well. I would probably pick K9 Kitchen first if you could only get one. But if you want to crunch your own numbers, then you want Optimal Nutrition as she got permision to reprint the NRC nutritional requirements for adult dogs. I think there are a couple of recipes as examples in each one, but one of the things you will learn is that each dog is individual and does best on a diet tailored to them, so she doesn't give a lot of recieps. If you look at her site though, there are a couple of pamphlets that have some general recipes in them and she does have some breed specific pamphlets too that address some of the common health issues in particular breeds and what you can do to help prevent those occurring, address them if they have occurred, etc. do you make up your dogs' meals based on her theories? how have you found the process? is it cost- effective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brighton Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) I came across this website which has a very good explanation on ingredients and a basic understanding of nutrition - this might help. http://www.xp3020.com.au/ingredients%20explained.html Edited November 21, 2011 by brighton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 thanks zayda_asher for the links and the information! The best sources to read on this topic are Monica Segal's two books K9 Kitchen and Optimal Nutrition. They're easy to read and have all the formulas for number crunching and working out kilo/cals etc. You can add extras to dry, I think Monical Segal says no more than 1 third of the meal, or you will disrupt the balance (I would have to check that though, as that is on memory and may not be correct). just out of curiosity, does that include raw vegies!??! i add about 20g raw veg to their 30g dry and if that is disruptive then i'd need to stop it and before the books arrive. Thanks for those Zayda_asher! Do they have recipes, or just explain the other side of things? WHich would be the best one to read first? No worries It's good to read them both together, they cover some similar ground, but complement each other well. I would probably pick K9 Kitchen first if you could only get one. But if you want to crunch your own numbers, then you want Optimal Nutrition as she got permision to reprint the NRC nutritional requirements for adult dogs. I think there are a couple of recipes as examples in each one, but one of the things you will learn is that each dog is individual and does best on a diet tailored to them, so she doesn't give a lot of recieps. If you look at her site though, there are a couple of pamphlets that have some general recipes in them and she does have some breed specific pamphlets too that address some of the common health issues in particular breeds and what you can do to help prevent those occurring, address them if they have occurred, etc. do you make up your dogs' meals based on her theories? how have you found the process? is it cost- effective? Hey Scruff Yes, I believe any additions are included and will change the balance. she has a yahoo group you could search for more info (k9 kitchen). I'm not as up on the kibble stuff, as we don't feed it, but you would find discussion on this in the list archives, I'm sure. I have used her formula and will do so again in the future. At the moment we are struggling through rechallenging foods with one dog for allergies, so once I know what both dogs can et again for now I will crunch the numbers again. It's a bit of work, but worth it IMO. I aim for balance over time, rather than being anal about it on a daily basis. If you are math challenged (that would be me) it is handy to have a mathy friend on hand to help. I personally don't find feeding home prepared any more expensive than feeding a premium kibble, but even if it was I'd have to suck it up, as there in no kibble my dogs can eat due to their allergies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) You can also get Monica to formulate a diet for you. Of course it costs a little, but any specialist service does. It's well worth it IMO and the follow up care you get is meant to be excellent. I'm going to get her to formulate my next pup's diet, as puppy diets need to be spot on Edit: sorry about the typos in my first post.. Hard to change on the iPad... Edited November 24, 2011 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 I came across this website which has a very good explanation on ingredients and a basic understanding of nutrition - this might help. http://www.xp3020.com.au/ingredients%20explained.html thanks brighton the information that site provides is helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Hey Scruff Yes, I believe any additions are included and will change the balance. she has a yahoo group you could search for more info (k9 kitchen). I'm not as up on the kibble stuff, as we don't feed it, but you would find discussion on this in the list archives, I'm sure. thanks, i'm searching for the group as we speak I have used her formula and will do so again in the future. At the moment we are struggling through rechallenging foods with one dog for allergies, so once I know what both dogs can et again for now I will crunch the numbers again. It's a bit of work, but worth it IMO. I aim for balance over time, rather than being anal about it on a daily basis. If you are math challenged (that would be me) it is handy to have a mathy friend on hand to help. I personally don't find feeding home prepared any more expensive than feeding a premium kibble, but even if it was I'd have to suck it up, as there in no kibble my dogs can eat due to their allergies. unfortunately, i don't know enuf, nor do i have the confidence to obtain balance over time i need to understand how to properly achieve that so my animal's aren't left 'wanting' for some element... You can also get Monica to formulate a diet for you. Of course it costs a little, but any specialist service does. It's well worth it IMO and the follow up care you get is meant to be excellent. I'm going to get her to formulate my next pup's diet, as puppy diets need to be spot on i might end up having to turn it over to her! thanks for the tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 ... she has a yahoo group you could search for more info (k9 kitchen). ... me again i've performed a search on yahoo groups and there's 2 listings: k9 kitchen 2003 [last active 5 months ago and the page won't display in any event!] and dog read [which mentions her name at least and the group is active in the last 7 days] --- it would be the 2nd one right!??! it calls for registration so i'd like to make sure first that it is the right group. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Here you go This should take you to the right group. Have a look at the list and books and see how you feel... There is a detailed walk through of how to do a diet in the archives (maybe in the files too?). Getting her to formulate your diet is definitely a good option - she is a wealth of info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Here you go This should take you to the right group. Have a look at the list and books and see how you feel... There is a detailed walk through of how to do a diet in the archives (maybe in the files too?). Getting her to formulate your diet is definitely a good option - she is a wealth of info! you're a bloody star!!! thanks soooo much for that link --- totally not found when i performed a search!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 A number of the super premium foods actually have a amount of raw you can feed before you interfere with the balance on the bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brighton Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 A number of the super premium foods actually have a amount of raw you can feed before you interfere with the balance on the bags. [/quote Which ones mention that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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