In Your Opinion, Is The Term High Drive Used Loosely?

[TheCoat]

I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it.

I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence.

From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results.

Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline?

I belong to groups and forums that have a lot of top international sheepdog trialers from different countries as members and the desire to see a sheepdog work at 6-8 weeks seems to be an Australian idiosyncracy. Overseas dog aren't often introduced to sheep till much older.

It is nice to see that drive early but it is not always the case.

There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

[Aidan3]

There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

I've seen a few studies which have looked at this, mixed results.

[TheCoat]

There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

I've seen a few studies which have looked at this, mixed results.

Yes, there are some studies on this along with linebreeding, locking in traits etc etc and I don't think anything concrete has been determined as yet regading genetic effects, but what I have been exposed to albiet from a micro section of a very large pool is that less pups showing early promise in a particular breeding or bloodline wash out over pups showing little promise improve?. There a some no doubt who do turn the corner and improve in maturity and some bloodlines can be a bit that way compared with others, but across a litter by 8 weeks the best driven pups I am a believer are most likely to stay that way than a low driven pup suddenly becoming the litter's most driven?.

I have seen it done through training though with an average pup assigned to an excellent trainer and the litter pick trained by someone not overly flash only working at half it's ability where the lesser dog is out performing the genetically better dog but is stretched to the limit in the training process?

Edited November 20, 2011 by TheCoat

[Vickie]

There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

As janba has said, what you see at 6 weeks, or 6 months can mean everything...or nothing in relation to how a dog may turn out. It is common practice in many countries to not even start training a dog on sheep until they are around 2 years.

Sheepdog people tend to select a breeding rather than an individual pup from a breeding. There is a common saying when asked which one will be kept from a litter..."whichever one is left"

The combination of herding traits is incredibly complex and much of it is impossible to assess, other than on stock.

Different types also suit different people. Some like a busy dog, some dont. Some like a dog who thinks for itself, some don't.

Some of the most successful dogs in history were someone else's rejects.

Of the 3 bitches I have here, they each display traits around the house that do not ring true on sheep & vice versa.

The one most likely to be fearful of every day things has the least fear on sheep.

The most biddable one to live with is the least biddable on sheep

The most independent one around the house is the one who works off my body the most

The one who showed the most promise as a young pup, is the least talented

Etc.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Vickie