In Your Opinion, Is The Term High Drive Used Loosely?

[Vickie]

Do you have any examples of your dogs working Nek or videos of dogs demonstrating what you would consider high drive?

I would love to see some video too

It's ok, I found some

[Kavik]

[i tend not to use the words high drive when describing my dogs much (especially since knowing Prix ;) ) it's all relative isn't it. It really is neither here nor there for me. What is important to me is that they have [i]useable[/i] drive for what I want them to do.

That is a very good point.

[TheCoat]

I think we need to keep in mind that there are "many" drives a dog can display either high or low, the term high drive across the board in a dog's character IMHO is incorrect unless it's describing a given task, like a high drive agility dog would mean to me the dog has the preferred drives to do well at that, same as a high drive Schutzhund dog, has the preferred drives for that sport or application.

Huski mentioned her scent hound is high drive in scenting I take it, but the high drive component of a scent hound is not the same high drive association one would describe for a security dog potential. Personally I relate the term "high drive" as meaning a natural ability to focus with sustainability and determination in what ever the drive or task is.

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

[Kavik]

TheCoat

But I think a dog could be high drive but untrained, so the drive wouldn't have been channeled into a useful activity or the dog wouldn't have learned how to focus itself.

[TheCoat]

TheCoat

But I think a dog could be high drive but untrained, so the drive wouldn't have been channeled into a useful activity or the dog wouldn't have learned how to focus itself.

That's when an untrained dog finds it's own value for drive satisfaction, like chasing and capturing the clothes flapping on the line with all your clothes etc ending up torn, ruined and spread over the back lawn. I bet the dog enjoyed every minute of it, but not a useful activity This is what I mean owning a high drive dog that isn't trained and left to it's own devices where a lower drive dog wouldn't look at the clothes on the line let alone tear them up?

I have been down this path in my early days with high drive dogs, once in a rental property where we had sneaked a dog in through the back gate so to speak, often people ask me how I contain my dogs from gross misbehaviour and self drive satisfaction and I guess their drive I channel and teach them from day one is all done with me. I am leaning towards a working Malinois for my next dog, perhaps after that will be good test if my theory works?

Edited November 20, 2011 by TheCoat

[Vickie]

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive?

Edited November 20, 2011 by Vickie

[Aidan3]

My late Golden began formal retrieving at an advanced age, 9.5 years. He would certainly chase a ball very enthusiastically but I wouldn't say he was high drive relative to some of the field-bred dogs I've seen. He was also an absolute couch potato at home. My GSD would chase a ball all day, still does if given the chance, even though she can no longer jump into the car on her own.

But of the two, for retrieving, Golden won hands down. I didn't have to teach him to mark the fall, carry with a soft mouth, or to use his nose to sniff out a blind retrieve. Those are all the things that would be really hard to teach from scratch, no matter how much drive.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have to look at the whole package, whether you are a breeder or a puppy buyer. Drive alone isn't enough.

[huski]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have to look at the whole package, whether you are a breeder or a puppy buyer. Drive alone isn't enough.

Totally agree Aidan

TheCoat... didn't take long for you to pop your head up again

[TheCoat]

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive?

Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

Edited November 20, 2011 by TheCoat

[gsdog2]

TheCoat

But I think a dog could be high drive but untrained, so the drive wouldn't have been channeled into a useful activity or the dog wouldn't have learned how to focus itself.

This is so true! I'm about to give my foster MWD back and I KNOW he's got high drive, but I don't think I've seen even half of what he's capable of - because I don't have the knowledge. But, (hopefully ) when I see him again at around 2 years of age I'll see a well-trained high drive dog

[Vickie]

You're missing my point...and you didn't answer my question...

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive?

Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

[Kavik]

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive?

Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

But couldn't the avoidance or disinterest come from the owner trying to suppress drive (because that is what they thought they wanted, or possibly accidentally)? So the dog doesn't want to express the drive/worried about doing so? Rather than the dog being low drive.

[Kavik]

Also, how many dogs manage to reach their potential regardless of initial drive? That lies with the handler and the training. Mine certainly haven't - working on that :D

[TheCoat]

You're missing my point...and you didn't answer my question...

A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive?

Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

[ness]

The base level of drive is genetic but the ability to utilize whatever level the dog has is training.

[Janba]

I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it.

I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence.

From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results.

[TheCoat]

The base level of drive is genetic but the ability to utilize whatever level the dog has is training.

Of course that goes without saying I totally agree, what I am talking about is that exceptional training can elevate a dog's performance beyond the level of a genetically better or higher driven dog lacking in training which can cloud a bloodline's true genetics.

[TheCoat]

I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it.

I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence.

From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results.

Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline?

[aussielover]

Yes the term "high drive" is used loosely, lots of people have different definitions, with many mistaking high energy levels for high drive.

Also I think when people say "high drive" what they are mostly refering to is high prey drive.

My dog has incredibly high food drive (like a lot of labs, that is all she thinks about ), but observing her training or at home, you wouldn't call her high drive in the typical working dog way the term is used. Perhaps some of this is due to handler faults (not fully utilizing the drive she does have).

Drive is genetic; but it can be developed to an extent.

Seeing a truly high drive dog reach its potential is amazing

Edited November 20, 2011 by aussielover

[Janba]

I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it.

I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence.

From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results.

Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline?

I belong to groups and forums that have a lot of top international sheepdog trialers from different countries as members and the desire to see a sheepdog work at 6-8 weeks seems to be an Australian idiosyncracy. Overseas dog aren't often introduced to sheep till much older.

It is nice to see that drive early but it is not always the case.