Red Fox Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I see people refer to their dogs as high drive when IMO the dogs are moderate and definitely not what I'd class as high drive, to me when I think of a high drive dog I think of a WL Malinois, like Pax's (member of this forum) dog Prix Prix is awesome. His little sis has some BIG shoes to fill!! I'd be happy if she turned out to be half as good as he is.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I use high drive to describe individual pups/dogs but I always say that it is a "High drive example of this breed". I have seen "high drive cavaliers" bought by people expecting a typical cav temperament. I understand on a technical and practical level that they in no way compare to a Mal BUT if someone is looking for a pet in this breed they would appreciate this description of a dog to steer away from, as opposed to someone looking for an agility prospect that is looking for that pup. If I use the term High Drive to them then they are able to grasp the concept. You have to look at definitions as well as the audience that you are talking to. Breeders are often (not always) talking to a different audience than sports people and so will use terminology to portray their meaning. Other breeders just don't know the difference- and they are the ones that drive me insane. Edited November 19, 2011 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I also think drive is not energy - my two are not 'high drive' but they are energetic at home and about and are on the go all the time (more the younger one), whereas a lot of the working line BCs I know are switched on and working 100% at training and trials, but their owners assure me they are completely different at home and are couch potatoes. I think if you have a higher drive dog it is important to train it to have an 'off switch', my brothers BCx is constantly at attention and just never seems to actually relax and switch off until she is forced too due to extreme tiredness! I also think drive is relative for the person assessing it- a Malinois owner probably thinks of almost every other breed as 'low drive' and an owner of a lazy dog probably thinks of most breeds as 'medium / high drive' Edited November 19, 2011 by amypie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Both of these clips show high drive dogs - as I said in another thread different breeds may look different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjCAJ7wghY Actually Michael Ellis has another clip where he explains about externalising and internalising drive which was interesting too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Thanks for the links and info everyone I'm still trying to understand the concepts and join the dots but I am finding it fascinating. The first video Kavik linked was amazing! I will be following this topic closely to find out more. Thanks again, it's all very enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Did someone say SPEED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby_The_Samoyed Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 Hey, the videos Kavik uploaded just reminded me to ask. Ive heard so many good things about Micheal Ellis, has he ever done any seminars in Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCoat Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 There are also "many" drive components with different definitions or understandings dependant on the group which the breed or work application belongs. A dog high in prey drive for example is ideally the intensity and determination to chase and capture with the energy to sustain it. Most of us have played tug games with especially a young dog, a dog low in prey drive may only offer a moderate interesting in chasing and capturing a tug toy after extreme teasing then after a little tug, the dog gives up and looses interest. A dog high in prey drive, the more teasing with a tug toy, the higher the intesity the dog has to catch it to point the dog can throw it's self with indiscriminant snapping lunges to capture the prey. A dog high in prey drive once learning the game of chasing a ball from a behaviour perspective does not react to seeing you with a ball anticipating a game in a moderately excited manner, the dog can go totally ape at the sight of a ball, lunging, barking, snapping, untrained a total nightmare of gross uncontrollable misbehaviour that the average dog owner can't handle or know where to start in gaining behavioural control of the dog, the dog then becomes a nuisence which extends into other forms of poor behaviour of a drive origin. Just a brief example of what behaviour a dog high in prey drive can exhibit and how some owners of this type of dog can't handle the intensity to the point of surrendering the dog when the intensity becomes beyond the owners control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 A dog high in prey drive once learning the game of chasing a ball from a behaviour perspective does not react to seeing you with a ball anticipating a game in a moderately excited manner, the dog can go totally ape at the sight of a ball, lunging, barking, snapping, untrained a total nightmare of gross uncontrollable misbehaviour that the average dog owner can't handle or know where to start in gaining behavioural control of the dog, the dog then becomes a nuisence which extends into other forms of poor behaviour of a drive origin. And with someone who knows what they are doing, the dog won't trigger like that off the sight of the prey item anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCoat Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 A dog high in prey drive once learning the game of chasing a ball from a behaviour perspective does not react to seeing you with a ball anticipating a game in a moderately excited manner, the dog can go totally ape at the sight of a ball, lunging, barking, snapping, untrained a total nightmare of gross uncontrollable misbehaviour that the average dog owner can't handle or know where to start in gaining behavioural control of the dog, the dog then becomes a nuisence which extends into other forms of poor behaviour of a drive origin. And with someone who knows what they are doing, the dog won't trigger like that off the sight of the prey item anyway. Correct and confirms the necessity for training high drive dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Correct and confirms the necessity for training high drive dogs Definitely! And depending on the training method (like anything) if you have a high drive dog, training can either be easy or near impossible. Personally I'd be bored if I had a low drive dog, I wouldn't enjoy it. Someone like my mum however is far better off with a moderately driven dog. I also agree with others who have said there is a difference between an energetic dog, and a dog with high drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCoat Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Correct and confirms the necessity for training high drive dogs Definitely! And depending on the training method (like anything) if you have a high drive dog, training can either be easy or near impossible. Personally I'd be bored if I had a low drive dog, I wouldn't enjoy it. Someone like my mum however is far better off with a moderately driven dog. I also agree with others who have said there is a difference between an energetic dog, and a dog with high drive. A lot of people become impressed with the obedience of well trained high drive dogs, a Border Collie a friend had a few years ago now was super to watch and he was a real handful through his training process at times, but people often thought if they get a working Border the great obedience comes with the pup and they end up with a dog through inadequate training they can't handle. If you like training dogs and enjoy the reward of achievement with dogs, high drive dogs are awesome in their motivation and intensity and I personally find low drive dogs the hardest to train? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 In the simplest terms drive = internal motivation. I know there is so much more to it of course. Interestingly I classify my Dalmatian as high energy, low drive - and yes, a tough dog to train but incredibly rewarding. Every ounce of food and prey drive has been obtained with blood, sweat and a few tears My working ESS is high energy, high drive with the BEST off switch. She is the softest, sweetest little dog. Her drive for flushing birds is beyond anything I could imagine. Her drive for everything else is pretty high too but nothing to her original purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blonde_Phoenix Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Short answer yes! Long answer....... What exactly is drive? My sister described her dog as ‘high drive’ and professional trainers have agreed, mine and my partners (uneducated) opinion is she is needy and hard to control. I should be careful my sister is active on the forum I might tear me apart LOL ;) (we love your girl an will puppy sit anytime). Our boy is way more laid back in general but when it’s go time he is unstoppable. Super willing to learn and with enthusiasm which most dogs would find hard to match. Can drive be switched on and off in the dog world? I guess it depends on the breed expectation and the definition of drive. Can a young puppy really be described as “high dive”? I don’t think so, lets face it all pups are a bit crazy. Older dogs described that way, well without professional opinion I’d guess the majority are just poorly trained/socialised. Blonde Phoenix, a puppy can definitely be high drive, I suggest you watch the video called 'So you think you want a high drive puppy'. I hope Nekhbet and others that understand this topic abit more drop a line on what they think. Bobby after rereading my post I think I worded the last part of my reply wrong. Yes a puppy can show a higher level of drive. Though I do think it needs to be nurtured to display what I consider true drive. I may have the wrong idea of drive but to me it about the dog having and intense desire to to preform an instructed task. I think it is hard to create and far easier to suppress. In regards to the OP I do think that the term is too often used to describe dogs (and more particularly breeds) who tend to be more energetic and dam I can think of a better word “crazy” . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 it's starting to become one of those modern pop words and for some reason suddenly everyone wants one. Until most people actually meet an animal that is 'high drive' they dont really understand what it is. Saying that high drive, whichever drive that happens to be we're talking about, is not the one and only point you want when you buy a dog. Plenty of high drive dogs out there with absolutely shocking temperaments that deserve nothing more then a one way trip to the vet. Actually for what most people want to do they don't actually need a massively driven dog. They use a dog's supposed lower drive as an excuse for their own shortcomings, oh he's too low in drive for what I want to do. Really? Or are you not working to bring out the best in your dog with what it already has. I dont see dog sports being on the up and up so why are we wanting more high drive dogs? I see people refer to their dogs as high drive when IMO the dogs are moderate and definitely not what I'd class as high drive, to me when I think of a high drive dog I think of a WL Malinois, like Pax's (member of this forum) dog Prix A dog displaying aggression is displaying drive, just not what we'd class as a 'positive' drive like food, pack or prey drive. If an animal has an innate need and desire to focus themselves and work why could it not be high drive - drive is not just prey drive. Just because a dog does not throw itself as an orbee ball does not mean it's low/moderate drive particularly if it is an animal that has never been focussed onto artificial drive items. There are plenty of dogs that would dig out a rabbit for hours just as much as a WL mal would chase a ball for hours. We're just not used to a lot of the 'out of the box' drives as we dont use dogs for what they're for as much any more... if I wanted to hunt deer or pig I wouldnt care if the pup I got ignored tennis balls over sticking his head to the ground, pulling to get to a scent and trying to struggle free to follow the scent he's on. I also do not believe in labelling a drive as negative or positive. Depending on what you want or need from your dog will shift that categorization. I'll also agree to disagree that avoidance is a drive. Mochi there are a lot of free articles here http://leerburg.com/dogtrainingebooks.htm to read about drives and dog behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 If an animal has an innate need and desire to focus themselves and work why could it not be high drive - drive is not just prey drive. Just because a dog does not throw itself as an orbee ball does not mean it's low/moderate drive particularly if it is an animal that has never been focussed onto artificial drive items. There are plenty of dogs that would dig out a rabbit for hours just as much as a WL mal would chase a ball for hours. We're just not used to a lot of the 'out of the box' drives as we dont use dogs for what they're for as much any more... if I wanted to hunt deer or pig I wouldnt care if the pup I got ignored tennis balls over sticking his head to the ground, pulling to get to a scent and trying to struggle free to follow the scent he's on. Yes, of course drive does not only present in the dog's desire to chase a toy. I see a lot of dogs that will go nuts for live prey but won't show drive for a toy. I have a scent hound so I know what it's like to have a dog who will display a relatively high amount of drive outside of food or chasing a toy. I certainly said no where nor did I give any examples that was what I was referring to when I mentioned people who have moderately driven dogs that they think are high drive. I also said no where that high drive = prey drive. I think people have different ideas of what they consider 'high drive' to mean and the term can be thrown around a lot when it's not necessarily accurate. Do you have any examples of your dogs working Nek or videos of dogs demonstrating what you would consider high drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I dont see dog sports being on the up and up so why are we wanting more high drive dogs? Seriously? The increased awareness & participation in a sport like agility is dramatic since I started 10 or so years ago. There is a distinct trend in people looking for higher drives as they choose their next dog. I tend not to use the words high drive when describing my dogs much (especially since knowing Prix ;) ) it's all relative isn't it. It really is neither here nor there for me. What is important to me is that they have useable drive for what I want them to do. Edited November 20, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) For me a high drive dog is one that wants to do its job over most other things and gives 100% focus and energy to the task at hand every time. A top sledding dog is extremely high drive, he wants to run and gives his all every time. A top ratting Jack Russell is high drive. He'd rather be doing that than anything else, and he never gives up. Selecting the right high drive dog for dog sports is choosing one who adapts its 'job' readily to working for its human/human provided reward. She gets no greater pleasure, and gives 100% every time she is asked to work. From my observations the ANKC dog sport people have in the past decade really embraced the term and the desire for a 'high drive' dog, but the working dog/IPO/Shutzhund people have long recognized the need for high drive coupled with a stable temperament and few character flaws. I see many dogs in ANKC circles that have weak nerves (no inner confidence, self assurance). Perhaps a symptom of people focusing too heavily on conformation and genetic screening and not enough on temperament. My last paragraph is also very skewed to observations from within my own breed! Edited November 19, 2011 by Inevitablue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Do you have any examples of your dogs working Nek or videos of dogs demonstrating what you would consider high drive? I would love to see some video too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) I agree with Vickie - its not how much drive its how much useable drive and does the dog have adequate drive to perform the given task at the level you are wishing. A high drive dog on its own agenda might perform less well in the ring then a moderately driven but highly biddable dog. Lots of dogs in the trial ring aren't performing to there genetic potential anyway - it possible to have a moderate to high drive dog and still kill drive so they don't perform to the best of there ability. Whereas its also possible to have a slightly lower drive dog and work them to the maximum of their potential and have them out perform the more moderate drive dog. Drive is certainly a very relative term. I performed a Dances with Dogs routine at a mock trial recently and was told I could score better if I took some drive out of my youngster. Edited November 20, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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