De Barking Dogs

[Steve]

You cant take your dog that is debarked out in public in vic that is how stupid the law is :mad

I am all for it, if everything else has been tried.

No thats not quite right.

If you do it all right and follow the law in Victoria - which is show the council that you have barking complaints and that you have tried all other methods of shutting the dog up and get the paperwork needed to have it done and have your vet do it you can take your dog to a dog show.

If you go interstate where these papers are not required and have the dog debarked then you cant show the dog.

They cant charge you with animal cruelty if a vet does the job but the law says if the dog has ever lived in Victoria and you take it ANYWHERE to get it done without the correct paperwork first then you will be charged if you take it to a dog show.

In the case they have already prosecuted and charged the person who showed their dogs with animal cruelty a vet in another state did the ops and in that state the council approvals were not required .There was no breach of the law in that state and she didnt do the op anyway - the vet did. But before the dogs were debarked they lived in Victoria so because she didnt get the council papers she wasnt able to show them.

The whole thing is quite amazing when you try to think it through. You cant make a decision between you and your vet without all this crap to have its voice lowered - which is little more than a tonsils op - but you can take it off any day and have it put down without any reason or explaination.

You can have it desexed which in comparison is a masssive op and in some places you have little choice but to have it desexed if you are not a registered breeder. Hell you can even have fake testicles implanted - in some states you can still eat them !

Some animal rights loonie ovesaeas said breeders were shoving pipes down dogs throats and hitting them with a hammer and debarking them without a vet.

Many have searched and searched but there is no evidence that has ever ever happened and I challenge anyone in this country to find just one single case where someone did that in order to stop the dog from barking and based on the anatomy its as good as impossible anyway.

Traditionally responsible owners did all they could to try to avoid the council having to attend and keep the neighbours happy whilst living under conditions which suited them with their dogs. But the process now needs someone to complain first ,a whole heap of things attempted to work through to shut the dog up - whilst upsetting the neighbours even more until a ranger agrees that all else has failed and gives the nod for you to go to your vet and have the op done.

Someone said it was cruel so you cant charge a person for getting their dogs debarked by a vet without paper work in place so you stop them by charging them if they take it to a dog show.

Whether you think its cruel or not the fact that this was made a law and part of the prevention of cruelty to animals act is really quite amazing. Does anyone anywhere really think that taking a dog to a dog show which has had its voice lowered is cruel to the dog?

Ordinary pet owners would go to their vets and ask for them to do the job - if the vet doesnt say no or inform them they need to have the paperwork what is the owner guilty of for asking if the vet goes ahead? If they were worried breeders would do the ppe down the neck trick why not simply make it illegal to debark unless you are a vet?

The fact that this was able to be made a law and that someone has already been charged and prosecuted and found guilty of animal cruelty for attending a dog show with them is for me, quite remarkable.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

So you can't show debarked dogs? Learn something new every day!

You can in every other state except Victoria. Legally that is. Also you can take a debarked dog from NSW or any other state into Vic to show it. again providing the dog has never been resident in Victoria

You can show them as long as you can prove you had it done by a vet with the correct paperwork. Its only cruel if you didnt get the papers first.

if I had $5 for every time I asked my self how this became a law and that they actually hunted down someone who didnt have the right paperwork Id be wealthy. Its just one of those things you cant stop shaking your head over.

[Dame Aussie]

Steve, you're spot on. We would have people come in saying they wanted their dog PTS and they would not have to give a reason....let lone go through all the "Requirements" for debarking.

Totally hypocritical.

[bt2510]

I'm afraid I'm at that stage now. My maltease is driving everyone crazy. For four years I have tried different bark collars and training methods but none have worked. I love my dog but enough is enough. I like to think I am a responsible dog owner but sometimes you just get a stupid dog. So far I have received complaints from neighbours and the council rangers at two different addresses. I have two dogs, one is a excellent and the other is not. Both have had extensive dog training. I can show you a heap of tricks it can do but I just can't shut this thing up. I have seen other debarked dogs and they seem very happy. I guess it comes down to debark the dog or get rid of it. Frankly my stupid dog is family so debarking is my only option left.

[Christina]

You cant take your dog that is debarked out in public in vic that is how stupid the law is :mad

I am all for it, if everything else has been tried.

to have its voice lowered - which is little more than a tonsils op -

I have just had a tonsils op day 7 & its agony, kills. So hope its not like that or ouch poor dogs. Think I may have changed my mind or very, very last desperate decision.

[Staffyluv]

After living next to a GSP that never stopped barking I am in favour of it for really bad barkers.

I live next door to 2 GSPs that have been barking for over 6 years now... It is a nightmare and their owner does nothing, council does nothing apart from talk to the guy... Every time council shows up, he moves them to a friends place for a few weeks and then they come back and start all over again.

Over the years I have made numerous complaints and filled in about 4 of those dog barking logs and still they bark...

I am all for debarking of dogs who just don't/won't learn...

[Guest Arcane]

I am all for debarking in the case of silly happy dogs that just bark for the joy of it & where alternatives have failed. Where it becomes not so black & white is with stress barkers. You can take away the bark, but unless you take away the stress as well, you just have a stressed dog suffering in silence for convenience sake.

As long as there is education along side of the decision....

[Poodlecrazy]

I moved to a closed mining town 8 years ago

Didn't have alot of choice conditions that I could take my dogs were they must be quiet

De-bark or place only one answer for me de-bark

Its one of my better choices my dogs still have a little bark but not annoying scream that a Toy Poodle can produce

My dogs came home hungry and happy to see me

[jacqui835]

I certainly advocate debarking as a desirable alternative to euthanising, or causing a nuisance. But I did wonder, reading through the posts about people wanting to show dogs that had been de-barked, well it made me worried because well one thing I would not want is a dog that barked incessently for no acceptable reason. If someone has tried everything, but their dogs still bark, does that seem abnormal to anyone else? I'm not saying that dog doesn't deserve to live and have a good life as a pet, but should it been shown as an ideal example of the breed, or worse in my mind, bred from? I mean is there any breed that despite training and proper exercise and housing conditions where it would still be 'ok' and within the standard for it to be barking to the point where surgery and the removal of body parts would be necessary to make it 'normal'?

I have never met a dog that was an incessent barker that in my mind had been trained properly and had its requirements fulfilled so it's not something I know a lot about - I'm just curious. We have plenty of dogs in our neighbourhood that bark half the day (thank Dog I'm not there) and at nights but they're never walked and ignored in their yards so I don't think it's a reflection on the nature of the dog. But a dog that barks despite having everything that would make other dogs happy and 'normal' barkers, well does that not seem like the symptom of a problem to anyone else?

[Crisovar]

You cant take your dog that is debarked out in public in vic that is how stupid the law is :mad

I am all for it, if everything else has been tried.

to have its voice lowered - which is little more than a tonsils op -

I have just had a tonsils op day 7 & its agony, kills. So hope its not like that or ouch poor dogs. Think I may have changed my mind or very, very last desperate decision.

I have known quite a few dogs that have had ventriculocordectomy performed. All have been quite happy to to demand and devour their dinner. Keeping them quiet after the procedure is a challenge.

[espinay2]

I certainly advocate debarking as a desirable alternative to euthanising, or causing a nuisance. But I did wonder, reading through the posts about people wanting to show dogs that had been de-barked, well it made me worried because well one thing I would not want is a dog that barked incessently for no acceptable reason. If someone has tried everything, but their dogs still bark, does that seem abnormal to anyone else? I'm not saying that dog doesn't deserve to live and have a good life as a pet, but should it been shown as an ideal example of the breed, or worse in my mind, bred from? I mean is there any breed that despite training and proper exercise and housing conditions where it would still be 'ok' and within the standard for it to be barking to the point where surgery and the removal of body parts would be necessary to make it 'normal'?

Some breeds are bred to bark to do their jobs.

Many Livestock Guardian breeds for example are bred to bark as a warning to predators that they are on duty. It is a trait that helps it do its job and is very typical of these types of breeds. This behaviour is perfectly normal and acceptable in a working or rural situation, but in a suburban situation is often 'misunderstood'. I have also found that in suburban situations where there is a lot more moving around 'out there' a LGD may bark a bit more than they would with a bit more space around them, because as far as they are concerned, there are a lot more 'potential predators' moving around their environment. Some dogs do bark more than others, and it can depend a lot on environmenal management, but I wouldn't 'mark down' an LGD because it barked a lot. I would be more likely to 'mark down' (from a potential breeding perspective) one that wasnt interested in barking and would be looking closer at its natural working ability (or possible lack of one).

Other breeds are also known for their barking. The Pumi for instance specifically states in its breed standard that it is 'rather noisy'

[Dame Aussie]

I certainly advocate debarking as a desirable alternative to euthanising, or causing a nuisance. But I did wonder, reading through the posts about people wanting to show dogs that had been de-barked, well it made me worried because well one thing I would not want is a dog that barked incessently for no acceptable reason. If someone has tried everything, but their dogs still bark, does that seem abnormal to anyone else? I'm not saying that dog doesn't deserve to live and have a good life as a pet, but should it been shown as an ideal example of the breed, or worse in my mind, bred from? I mean is there any breed that despite training and proper exercise and housing conditions where it would still be 'ok' and within the standard for it to be barking to the point where surgery and the removal of body parts would be necessary to make it 'normal'?

Some breeds are bred to bark to do their jobs.

Many Livestock Guardian breeds for example are bred to bark as a warning to predators that they are on duty. It is a trait that helps it do its job and is very typical of these types of breeds. This behaviour is perfectly normal and acceptable in a working or rural situation, but in a suburban situation is often 'misunderstood'. I have also found that in suburban situations where there is a lot more moving around 'out there' a LGD may bark a bit more than they would with a bit more space around them, because as far as they are concerned, there are a lot more 'potential predators' moving around their environment. Some dogs do bark more than others, and it can depend a lot on environmenal management, but I wouldn't 'mark down' an LGD because it barked a lot. I would be more likely to 'mark down' (from a potential breeding perspective) one that wasnt interested in barking and would be looking closer at its natural working ability (or possible lack of one).

Other breeds are also known for their barking. The Pumi for instance specifically states in its breed standard that it is 'rather noisy'

Agree, My Anatolian is a bit of a loud mouth but it isn't incessant and he is kept inside at night. I would be worried if he didn't bark every now and then

[Crisovar]

Many debarked Showdogs are not problem barkers...the neighbours and society at large are the problem.

Barking dogs are not tolerated, trying to live happily in suburbia with your dogs can be a challenge, many showies are afraid to allow their dogs to make a sound for fear of reprisal. It is the way of the world we live in. If there is a noise complaint in a neighbourhood the first person under suspicion will be the exhibitor/breeder with a multi dog license. To avoid the stress and the fear of losing ones dogs some choose to debark to prevent any issues.

[WreckitWhippet]

Many debarked Showdogs are not problem barkers...the neighbours and society at large are the problem.

Barking dogs are not tolerated, trying to live happily in suburbia with your dogs can be a challenge, many showies are afraid to allow their dogs to make a sound for fear of reprisal. It is the way of the world we live in. If there is a noise complaint in a neighbourhood the first person under suspicion will be the exhibitor/breeder with a multi dog license. To avoid the stress and the fear of losing ones dogs some choose to debark to prevent any issues.

Ain't that the truth and it's horrible to live that way. The first bark and I'm awake, the second and I'm up dealing with it. We sleep all of the dogs indoors, for fear that one of them may happen to make a squeak in the night and we'll have council on the door step. Meanwhile the neighbourhood habitual barkers continue on their merry way

[jacqui835]

I certainly advocate debarking as a desirable alternative to euthanising, or causing a nuisance. But I did wonder, reading through the posts about people wanting to show dogs that had been de-barked, well it made me worried because well one thing I would not want is a dog that barked incessently for no acceptable reason. If someone has tried everything, but their dogs still bark, does that seem abnormal to anyone else? I'm not saying that dog doesn't deserve to live and have a good life as a pet, but should it been shown as an ideal example of the breed, or worse in my mind, bred from? I mean is there any breed that despite training and proper exercise and housing conditions where it would still be 'ok' and within the standard for it to be barking to the point where surgery and the removal of body parts would be necessary to make it 'normal'?

Some breeds are bred to bark to do their jobs.

Many Livestock Guardian breeds for example are bred to bark as a warning to predators that they are on duty. It is a trait that helps it do its job and is very typical of these types of breeds. This behaviour is perfectly normal and acceptable in a working or rural situation, but in a suburban situation is often 'misunderstood'. I have also found that in suburban situations where there is a lot more moving around 'out there' a LGD may bark a bit more than they would with a bit more space around them, because as far as they are concerned, there are a lot more 'potential predators' moving around their environment. Some dogs do bark more than others, and it can depend a lot on environmenal management, but I wouldn't 'mark down' an LGD because it barked a lot. I would be more likely to 'mark down' (from a potential breeding perspective) one that wasnt interested in barking and would be looking closer at its natural working ability (or possible lack of one).

Other breeds are also known for their barking. The Pumi for instance specifically states in its breed standard that it is 'rather noisy'

Thank you, this makes sense.

[jacqui835]

Many debarked Showdogs are not problem barkers...the neighbours and society at large are the problem.

Barking dogs are not tolerated, trying to live happily in suburbia with your dogs can be a challenge, many showies are afraid to allow their dogs to make a sound for fear of reprisal. It is the way of the world we live in. If there is a noise complaint in a neighbourhood the first person under suspicion will be the exhibitor/breeder with a multi dog license. To avoid the stress and the fear of losing ones dogs some choose to debark to prevent any issues.

Ain't that the truth and it's horrible to live that way. The first bark and I'm awake, the second and I'm up dealing with it. We sleep all of the dogs indoors, for fear that one of them may happen to make a squeak in the night and we'll have council on the door step. Meanwhile the neighbourhood habitual barkers continue on their merry way

Very sad. Try to do everything right and yet by being registered and out in the open you're more likely to be targeted.

[jr_inoz]

I certainly advocate debarking as a desirable alternative to euthanising, or causing a nuisance. But I did wonder, reading through the posts about people wanting to show dogs that had been de-barked, well it made me worried because well one thing I would not want is a dog that barked incessently for no acceptable reason. If someone has tried everything, but their dogs still bark, does that seem abnormal to anyone else? I'm not saying that dog doesn't deserve to live and have a good life as a pet, but should it been shown as an ideal example of the breed, or worse in my mind, bred from? I mean is there any breed that despite training and proper exercise and housing conditions where it would still be 'ok' and within the standard for it to be barking to the point where surgery and the removal of body parts would be necessary to make it 'normal'?

Some breeds are bred to bark to do their jobs.

Many Livestock Guardian breeds for example are bred to bark as a warning to predators that they are on duty. It is a trait that helps it do its job and is very typical of these types of breeds. This behaviour is perfectly normal and acceptable in a working or rural situation, but in a suburban situation is often 'misunderstood'. I have also found that in suburban situations where there is a lot more moving around 'out there' a LGD may bark a bit more than they would with a bit more space around them, because as far as they are concerned, there are a lot more 'potential predators' moving around their environment. Some dogs do bark more than others, and it can depend a lot on environmenal management, but I wouldn't 'mark down' an LGD because it barked a lot. I would be more likely to 'mark down' (from a potential breeding perspective) one that wasnt interested in barking and would be looking closer at its natural working ability (or possible lack of one).

Other breeds are also known for their barking. The Pumi for instance specifically states in its breed standard that it is 'rather noisy'

Shetland sheepdog is another - meant to warn of strangers about. My girl definitely does that. She only barks when there are people at the back fence - that she doesn't know.

[Steve]

No amout of training will stop some dogs especially those which have been bred to bark in order to do the work they were originally intended to do. iBut apart from that not all owners are equal either. If someone doesnt want to put in a heap of energy,money , stress into months of trying to cope and into training etc or run the risk of upsetting the neighbours and having visits and complaints about them at council and would prefer to go to debarking - what the hell is the problem? Why push them and make them go that way ? We yank out their sex organs, over vaccinate, give them a slow poison each month for heart worm, even have them bumped off without asking for permission, we can have the vet put in fake bloody testicles and thats O.K. but if debarking suits us and its done by a vet and allows everyone to get on with life - with the dog - what is the problem?

[TessnSean]

When we lived in Melb, we were hassled relentlessly by the neighbour over a barking dog. She did not even fit the council criteria for a nuisance dog. She never barked longer than 90 seconds and I know that because I kept a diary religiously to show 'it' every time she came banging on our door.

She would hear dogs barking in the surrounding houses and blame mine and there were two occasions I waved BOB. Certificates under her nose as proof we were not even home. Her son started the barking by banging on the fence and teasing the dog. When people complain they can hear a dog bark from inside your own house, what hope do you have of any sensible discussion. I considered debarking but in the end, we sold up and moved. Best thing we ever did.

I was totally against debarking because I think I humanised the procedure. The bark can be quite husky and in a human that equals a sore throat. A friend had her boy debarked and it really educated me to how simple the operation actually is. He is quite a sensitive dog and can go off his food for a book full of reasons. Many times I have seen my friend hand feeding him because he does not handle any sort of stress and eating is the first thing that stops. Apart from the first night he came home, he never refused a single feed after the op. he is actually less stressed than he has ever been and I put that down to the fact that he can now vocalist his feelings albeit in a husky voice.

[Dame Aussie]

No amout of training will stop some dogs especially those which have been bred to bark in order to do the work they were originally intended to do. iBut apart from that not all owners are equal either. If someone doesnt want to put in a heap of energy,money , stress into months of trying to cope and into training etc or run the risk of upsetting the neighbours and having visits and complaints about them at council and would prefer to go to debarking - what the hell is the problem? Why push them and make them go that way ? We yank out their sex organs, over vaccinate, give them a slow poison each month for heart worm, even have them bumped off without asking for permission, we can have the vet put in fake bloody testicles and thats O.K. but if debarking suits us and its done by a vet and allows everyone to get on with life - with the dog - what is the problem?