****

[Souff]

That's interesting that one paper says 'facial scratches' on the baby and the other reports 'horrific facial injuries' - wonder which is closer to the actual truth?

Given that infants skin is very fine, an agitated dog with any sort of claws could do major damage, especially near the eyes. Scratches or gouges? Somewhere in the reports it appears that the man with the wrench had to put his hands round the dog's throat to get the dog to release the child.

Somewhere in all this mess of 'blame the dog/ blame the man/ blame the owner/blame the media' there is a very frightened, injured small child who may never want to be put in the pram again and may grow up with a hatred of dogs.

Those scars can be more long lasting than the actual injuries.

None of this had to happen .... if people who supposedly love dogs had shouldered their responsibility properly in the first place.

Souff

[KatrinaM]

I am a breeder of pure bred registered dogs. I also breed non registered working dogs. I think you know nothing of my knowledge of animal husbandry.

At the bottom end of the spectrum there are plenty of pure bred breeders who refuse to health test, consider conformation more important than health or temperament or just breed for sale. They range from the new and fumbling breeder to the old and cagey who are looking for a bit of extra cash. Some huge puppy producers are registered

breeders.

Saying that only pure bred registered breeders

are ethical and everyone else is the cause of all dog

related problems is dangerous and stupid. It gives the

dodgy something to hide and fails to address the problem

of breeding without thought for the quaility of life the pups

will enjoy and suitable homes for them.

I do not support indiscriminate breeding of dogs but because I sit in both camps I have seen the best and worst in both. I can't see ANKC status as the dividing line, it seems to me to be more like the reasons why pups are

bred, the after care and advice and the thought that goes

into breeding that sort the good from the bad.

[Souff]

They why state it's a problem with "ALL" crossbreds?? Isnt it actually a problem of irresponsible breeders. Just because you fork over cash to the state controlling body and get two dogs on open register that you can breed together hardly makes you responsible!

Where did anyone say "all" crossbreeds?

I have no problem with working lines being specifically bred to do a task on properties and I am pretty sure I am not going to find them lunging into a child's pram in the streets of Melbourne.

The dogs that feature in reports of dog attacks on a sickeningly all-too-regular basis in metropolitan newspapers are a far cry from the dogs used on the land. If I am correct, many of the working dogs lines are recorded on registers other than the ANKC registers.

It is unlikely that the pedigree of dogs like the one in this attack are recorded anywhere.

I would not expect there to be any knowledge as to what exactly was in the makeup of this dog, as is the case when I ask owners of crossbred dogs in the city about the features/temperament of the parents when they have a behavioural problem with their dogs. I rarely get the information that I ask for, so I do not know if I am working with herding lines, retrieving lines, terrier lines, or any other bloody lines. The owners of crossbred dogs in cities rarely know the inherited attributes that make their dog tick - often it is anybody's guess. If might look like one type of dog, but it is driven by the attributes of another type of dog. To know is to understand, and then to better manage the dog.

Knowing the predictability of a dog comes from knowing what is in it's background, as I am sure you well know.

Souff

Edited November 18, 2011 by Souff

[Souff]

Saying that only pure bred registered breeders

are ethical and everyone else is the cause of all dog

related problems is dangerous and stupid.

Katrina,

Where did I say this?

I commented, and agree with, this post:

"No crossbreeds are finely bred animals with years of bloodlines at hand for trait selection to produce a temperament balance to safely fit into the community, crap dogs bred by idiots unfortunately."

I will make an exception for the working crossbred dogs whose pedigrees are recorded on non-ANKC registers and who are not lunging into prams.

Beyond that, no, I will stick with the statement made above.

Souff

[Mags]

First, show us the reports where the dogs involved in attacks are correctly identified.

Many dogs are wrongly labelled and yet these descriptions often go into official stats, wrong or not.

Souff

Totally agree with this comment. Really do not think most people have any clue about dog breeds and often even get colours wrong. A friends standard poodle (he is in pet clip) managed to get out of their yard - as soon as they realised he was missing they all went searching - one of their neighbours told their daughter she had seen their "pit bull" go passed just minutes before. She was scared because this "dangerous" dog was loose. They found their poodle not long afterwards and introduced him to their neighbour and explained his breed. He is a lovely dog and gets on well with everyone regardless of species.

[minimiss]

First, show us the reports where the dogs involved in attacks are correctly identified.

Many dogs are wrongly labelled and yet these descriptions often go into official stats, wrong or not.

Souff

Totally agree with this comment. Really do not think most people have any clue about dog breeds and often even get colours wrong. A friends standard poodle (he is in pet clip) managed to get out of their yard - as soon as they realised he was missing they all went searching - one of their neighbours told their daughter she had seen their "pit bull" go passed just minutes before. She was scared because this "dangerous" dog was loose. They found their poodle not long afterwards and introduced him to their neighbour and explained his breed. He is a lovely dog and gets on well with everyone regardless of species.

A poodle being mistaken as a pitbull

I knew some people had no clue, but.. I thought everyone knew poodles from pitbulls at the minimum.. Apparently not! I'm quite shocked. Defintely can't assume anything these days can we?

[KatrinaM]

Sorry Souff, that was meant to be for TheCoat, not you!

Am on my phone so it only adds to my literacy woes.

I get so sick of cross bred breeders blaming sick dogs, lack of ability and poor temperment on "show" or "pure" breeders and pure bred breeeders blaming overpopulation, dog attacks and Monday mornings on cross breeders.

Truth is both camps have the same type of people in them, one hide behind hybrid vigour the other behind the ANKC. The cream of the crop on either side have more in common with each other than they do with the poorest of

their counterparts in their chosen breed or cross.

[Greytmate]

Sorry Souff, that was meant to be for TheCoat, not you!

Am on my phone so it only adds to my literacy woes.

I get so sick of cross bred breeders blaming sick dogs, lack of ability and poor temperment on "show" or "pure" breeders and pure bred breeeders blaming overpopulation, dog attacks and Monday mornings on cross breeders.

Truth is both camps have the same type of people in them, one hide behind hybrid vigour the other behind the ANKC. The cream of the crop on either side have more in common with each other than they do with the poorest of

their counterparts in their chosen breed or cross.

I don't think so.

Registered breeders breed openly and transparently. Their choices are recorded for anyone to see, whether they turned out to be good choices or poor.

Breeders of unregistered dogs who do not record pedigree are just hiding their activities, nobody knows what lines are in their dogs and those dogs are useless for future breeding programs. They are not the same kind of breeders as registered breeders at all, and it doesn't matter what their philosophy is if the dogs they produce have unknown and unregistered parentage, their lines have no future.

[stone]

I do not support indiscriminate breeding of dogs but because I sit in both camps I have seen the best and worst in both. I can't see ANKC status as the dividing line, it seems to me to be more like the reasons why pups are

bred, the after care and advice and the thought that goes

into breeding that sort the good from the bad.

[

I assume this isn't meant as it reads, that you are both an ANKC registered breeder who also breeds indiscriminately. But after rereading it acouple of times, i'm not real sure

However, a question, if you are indeed an ANKC registered breeder don't you consider breeding unregistered xbreeds, or using any unregistered dog in a breeding programme, for any purpose, other than stated exemptions, guide dogs, police dogs etc, a contravention of the ANKC code of ethics. A code that explicitly forbids it?

You can't really have a foot in both camps.

You are either an ethical registered ANKC breeder that is bound by the code or you are just another indiscriminate breeder.

[geo]

I don't think so.

Registered breeders breed openly and transparently. Their choices are recorded for anyone to see, whether they turned out to be good choices or poor.

Breeders of unregistered dogs who do not record pedigree are just hiding their activities, nobody knows what lines are in their dogs and those dogs are useless for future breeding programs. They are not the same kind of breeders as registered breeders at all, and it doesn't matter what their philosophy is if the dogs they produce have unknown and unregistered parentage, their lines have no future.

I agree in some ways but many working dog breeders keep a detailed record of their lines, dogs only go to friends, proven wokrability, health etc.. just because they do not belong to the AKNC doesn't mean they're no good at breeding, same as belonging to the AKNC doesn't guarantee that someone is good.

Most BYBers though don't have a clue and you' re correct you just don't know what you're going to get.

[TheCoat]

I am a breeder of pure bred registered dogs. I also breed non registered working dogs. I think you know nothing of my knowledge of animal husbandry.

At the bottom end of the spectrum there are plenty of pure bred breeders who refuse to health test, consider conformation more important than health or temperament or just breed for sale. They range from the new and fumbling breeder to the old and cagey who are looking for a bit of extra cash. Some huge puppy producers are registered

breeders.

Saying that only pure bred registered breeders

are ethical and everyone else is the cause of all dog

related problems is dangerous and stupid. It gives the

dodgy something to hide and fails to address the problem

of breeding without thought for the quaility of life the pups

will enjoy and suitable homes for them.

I do not support indiscriminate breeding of dogs but because I sit in both camps I have seen the best and worst in both. I can't see ANKC status as the dividing line, it seems to me to be more like the reasons why pups are

bred, the after care and advice and the thought that goes

into breeding that sort the good from the bad.

Ok, you breed unregistered working dogs, may I ask what for? I know people do this and claim to have these awesome dogs that no purebreed can fulfill, like the dairy farmer we know had a generation of home brew crossbreeds until he was shown a Belgian Malinois trained on the job that worked out better than his crossbreeds. I don't totally believe these crossbreed working dogs are essential and perhaps in the eyes of the beholder?

Edited November 19, 2011 by TheCoat

[Animal House]

Maybe start up another thread instead of derailing this one. :D

[stone]

I'm totally in the pure breed / pedigree camp, but agree with KatrinaM. There are backyarders I would fault for not doing genetic tests, etc., but who breed primarily because their dogs have been fantastic companions and they and some friends want a pup .

My comprehension must be off.

It does appear to me you are saying it's o.k. to breed mongrels if friends want a puppy?

Not an unusual scenario - friend wants a puppy - 8/10 in the litter- what then?

Multiply that a couple of hundred/thousand times

I know whose comprehension is out of whack.

But hey, Maybe it's because I'm a pure breed aficiando that considers the ANKC CoE I have agreed to abide by actually means something that has you tossed?

I'm just old fashioned you see, I believe a handshake is a deal, your word is your bond. Thou shall not breed mongrels. Thou shall not use unregistered dogs for breeding.

Silly stuff like that.

Edited November 19, 2011 by stone

[TheCoat]

Sorry Souff, that was meant to be for TheCoat, not you!

Am on my phone so it only adds to my literacy woes.

I get so sick of cross bred breeders blaming sick dogs, lack of ability and poor temperment on "show" or "pure" breeders and pure bred breeeders blaming overpopulation, dog attacks and Monday mornings on cross breeders.

Truth is both camps have the same type of people in them, one hide behind hybrid vigour the other behind the ANKC. The cream of the crop on either side have more in common with each other than they do with the poorest of

their counterparts in their chosen breed or cross.

I don't think so.

Registered breeders breed openly and transparently. Their choices are recorded for anyone to see, whether they turned out to be good choices or poor.

Breeders of unregistered dogs who do not record pedigree are just hiding their activities, nobody knows what lines are in their dogs and those dogs are useless for future breeding programs. They are not the same kind of breeders as registered breeders at all, and it doesn't matter what their philosophy is if the dogs they produce have unknown and unregistered parentage, their lines have no future.

I agree, thank you :D

[stone]

Maybe start up another thread instead of derailing this one. :D

Good call.

[Greytmate]

I don't think so.

Registered breeders breed openly and transparently. Their choices are recorded for anyone to see, whether they turned out to be good choices or poor.

Breeders of unregistered dogs who do not record pedigree are just hiding their activities, nobody knows what lines are in their dogs and those dogs are useless for future breeding programs. They are not the same kind of breeders as registered breeders at all, and it doesn't matter what their philosophy is if the dogs they produce have unknown and unregistered parentage, their lines have no future.

I agree in some ways but many working dog breeders keep a detailed record of their lines, dogs only go to friends, proven wokrability, health etc.. just because they do not belong to the AKNC doesn't mean they're no good at breeding, same as belonging to the AKNC doesn't guarantee that someone is good.

Most BYBers though don't have a clue and you' re correct you just don't know what you're going to get.

I did not say ANKC registered, I said registered.

There are other registries beside ANKC.

You either register what you breed, or you are just another idiot throwing two dogs together.

[KatrinaM]

Sorry Greytmate, I cant agree with you. Until the ANKC makes mandatory DNA testing for parentage then a written pedigree from them is not fool proof by any means and means no more than any other pedigree. Many working dog breeders also record pedigrees but their dogs are not pedigreed in the way people think of pure bred dogs. They have information both good and bad about dogs in the pedigree for may generations, these dogs siblings and their siblings offspring, their dogs have proven themselves in their chosen field, have good stable temperaments, are free from faults which impact on their quaility of life and keep in contact with puppy buyers offering advice and assistance where they can. Yet, from what you are saying good pedigree breeders have more in common with people who get two "rare" blue dogs from who ever will sell them a dog and breed them together just to sell the pups without a further thought for them????

Stone, I meant I have a foot in both camps as in I have pure and non pure bred dogs which I breed. Not that I consider myself an indescriminate breeder. Can you please point me to the ANKC/CCCQ rules where it states that cross breeding is prohibited? I dont think etical breeding has anything to do with ANKC registration or lack there of, I think it is something else all together. I dont breed my cross and pure bred dogs together, that would kind of defeat the purpose. And give some very odd looking animals.

If you seriously want to know about my cross bred dogs feel free to PM me TheCoat. This is not the forum to talk specifics about the non purebred dogs. My dogs are not first generation home brew crosses.

I am not talking about people breeding dogs just to sell but dogs bred for a purpose - where I live these are the cross bred dogs I see daily, not dogs from unknown parents, sold to whoever has the money, who have behavioural issues and end up roaming the streets looking for children in prams to bite or scratch.

[KatrinaM]

Greytmate, what about those breeders before they developed a registry for their breed or type? Were they idoits throwing two dogs together and then once there was a body who would record the already recorded pedigrees then suddenly they were OK? Having been involved on the ground floor with two registries (one not my breed at all) I can tell you from experiance it didnt make any idiots less of idiots. It just gave them a way to record and DNA verify their dogs pedigrees.

[stone]

Greytmate, what about those breeders before they developed a registry for their breed or type? Were they idoits throwing two dogs together and then once there was a body who would record the already recorded pedigrees then suddenly they were OK? Having been involved on the ground floor with two registries (one not my breed at all) I can tell you from experiance it didnt make any idiots less of idiots. It just gave them a way to record and DNA verify their dogs pedigrees.

See post #75

Something to on with in the meantime.

I did not say ANKC registered, I said registered.

There are other registries beside ANKC.

You either register what you breed, or you are just another idiot throwing two dogs together.

[geo]

Register with who?

If you do not agree with the ANKC who do you register with? What if you're breeders of working dogs, keep your own records etc..

I certainly do not think that just because someone isn't registered withe ANKC makes them idiots, though as a blanket statement it probably isn't too far off.