Have We Got Our Priorities Right?

[Gayle.]

There seems to be a general feeling here that people (who want to buy dogs) want everything NOW and aren't prepared to wait for the right pup to come along, but that is just not the case. If people only knew how to get a well-bred pup, who to ask, where to look and then get treated with a certain level of respect....and not just lumped in together as "Joe Public, the annoying bloody puppy buyer who asks stupid questions and doesn't know anything"....I have no doubt that they'd wait. Not for years, but certainly for a few months to be given the chance to buy a pup from good breeding.

It should be easier than it ever was to get in touch with registered breeders and source nicely bred and reared puppies but it's just as difficult as ever. The internet should make the connection easy, but it's not.

[mita]

[

It's a general assumption that sometimes comes up when people on here refer to those who purchase their pets from shops or unregistered breeders. Not to anyone in particular, just in general. Where someone buys their pet does not equate to how they treat their pet, and I'd go so far as to say that some of those pets live better and more fulfilled lives than some that are owned by registered breeders....the ones who have a revolving door of dog ownership, and pass their dogs from breeder to breeder, show home to show home.

Now I've got what you meant. I thought someone must have actually said it, in this thread.

My own experience has been that there are good pet-owning people who thought that a pet-shop is where pet buyers have to go. Like how they go to other special product shops.

Our landscape gardener is a good example of that. He & his family are great pet owners. He bought his GSD (no papers) at a nearby pet-shop. This dog is a few years old now, & is much loved and very well cared for.

He likes our 2 small purebreds & they like him (dogs are good judges!). He was very surprised to hear they were ex-showdogs.

Another person who thought pet people can't buy from 'show' people & that the life of every show dog makes them not suitable for pets! He's been interested to know that his family will have other options, when they get another dog (far in the future!). I'd agree with you, in this case. Wherever this man gets an animal from, it's well looked after (even their chooks!).

[Gayle.]

Well, we get our chooks from the local chook auctions...not sure if that equates to a pet shop for chooks and the sellers are probably backyard breeders of chooks.....they certainly aren't show quality, but we love our chooks and none of them have ever ended up in the pot and each of them has a name, and they live a very nice life here.

[Steve]

I think the quote that was taken exception to was this one

I think (and it's only my thought) is that the purebred fraternity should continue to focus on being a provider of quality dogs to a niche market of potential owners who are willing to learn, be responsible and view their dog as more than a throw-away possession.

I don't think it was Conztruct's intention to say that those who own dogs from 'less reputable' sources consider their pets throw-away (well at least I hope they didn't). My families BYB girl is seriously the greatest dog to walk the earth ( well in my unbiased opinion anyway). She has just retired from agility competitions at age thirteen obviously not a good poster pup for BYB dogs are unhealthy.

I'm genuinely interested Steve, where is the over regulation coming from, is it the government or is it dog organisations? I don't breed so I honestly don't know.

In some states if you are a breeder a whole heap of laws and mandatory regs cut in which you dont have to be under if you dont breed. More and more regs come in as well for the state CCs which registered purebred breeders have to operate under. many of which fly in against basic science for the species.

For example as a dog owner you can decide when and if you will have your dog vaccinated. If it is a breeding dog in some states you have no choice but to have them vaccinated by a vet every year. If you dont you are in breach of the mandatory codes for breeding dogs.We had a world reknowed canine immunologist come out and give seminars , She made DVDV's and helped with info for our canine immunology course but none of that knowledge means anything because the law says so. .

Laws and codes are designed for people who have a couple of hundred dogs and even then its about how dogs in boarding kennels or shelters should be kept not breeding dogs. None of us want tO keep our dogs on concrete floors, we dont want a government to decide how many we are able to allow to sleep together at night.

Choices we used to have regarding whether we felt a bitch was fit enough to breed or how often she should be bred and which dog she should be bred to have been removed.or restricted. Thats not even getting near where the pressure to fall into some crazy mould is put on about how you are or are not responsible. Dont advertise here or there and if you dont like someone or if you have a difference in breeding goals,dont show etc etc just dob them in. the RSPCA have to respond to complaints so even if they dont get em for what they have been reported for maybe their paperwork isnt right up to date and the stress of being raided is all they deserve. In some places you need a Development application and approval to run a business just to breed one single litter of puppies. In others in order to get a permit to have a litter and keep an entire dog you have to have your home inspected once a year.

People who have been breeding for years who have had half a dozen dogs sleeping on their beds have had to have kennels, and areas for quarantine.

Last friday I fell down a hole and sprained my ankle. ice pack and strapping and a limp for a week and its nearly all better - id treat my kids the same way but if I had a dog which developed a limp in case someone saw it id rush it to a vet in case I got pinged for not getting vet treatment. Once I was proud of the fact that my dogs lived for 20 years and didnt need to see a vet - now if they dont see a vet Im a bad breeder and dont care about my dogs.

there have been proposals for stock feed places to dob in people who buy lots of dog food, vets to dob in people who bring in puppies but no older dogs ,licences for breeders, placement of our address in the public arena.Dobbing us in to the ATO for undeclared income.

Some are stupid and will never fly but its constant and its no where near the fun it used to be and when you have people who are not motivated to breed for money and they no longer enjoy it - its all over.

So its about the over regulation and the politics and culture and until you can make it fun again why on earth would anyone put up with it if not for money?

Whether its a real threat or not many of us are just simply over it and one breeder said to me this week. "The amount of pressure that was taken from me when I chucked in the CC membership was huge and its the best thing I ever did."

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Thank you Steve for answering my question, I'll admit I had a very limited idea about the level of regulation breeders were faced with. I don't think it will happen but it would be nice if we could all step back, take a deep breath, drop our prejudices and start coming up with solutions rather than constant hurdles.

[sandgrubber]

Aussie, I think it's a combination, a bit from nature and a bit from nurture. Breeding from known lines allows choices to be made to increase the chances of a 'good' natured dog, but of course it's not an exact science. I do think also (and this is a massive generalisation) that those who choose to own registered purebred dogs would tend to have more interest/knowledge/experience in dogs when compared to the general dog owning public. This in turn would lead to better behavioural outcomes. My statement was more to do with how the ANKC represents itself rather than passing judgement on dogs from other origins.

I totally agree there are plenty of lovely natured cross breeds out there and plenty of their owners are just as knowledgeable and responsible as those who own purebreds.

Ah ok, sorry BP, I totally agree with you anyway, the bolded part was what I was getting at.

The dog owning public isn't uniform. I'd guess that the problem segment is made up of people who don't have the time, means, or inclination to do right by their dogs. These folks are inclined to have X-breeds that were not bred for profit, and available for cheap. Its common for them to keep their dogs entire, and to fence them poorly, which ends out with quite a few oops litters. There are some ugly specimens with 'my dog can whip your dog' mentality, who take pride in how many litters their dog has sired via fence jumping. Apart from this lot, and the show crowd, whose lives often revolve around their dogs, my guess is you'd find X-breed owners and purebred owners aren't all that different.

[~Anne~]

If the right support was provided, it would also slow the decline of breeders. It all works together. Breeders need support. Currently, there is inadequate support and promottion it seems.

Its not about support its about over regulation. Breeders arent walking away because the ANKC doesnt support them.

Unless you actually suvey breeders you haven't any real evidence about why they are walking away. Chances are, it could be that they feel óver regulated' but by the same token, that doesn't mean that promotion and or support won't turn things around.

Further, what is stopping new breeders coming into the fold? I can't see that the same influences would affect both groups.

Much like the debate about the originating source of dogs in pounds, unless a fact finding mission is instigated to determine the actual lay of the land, and a considered and appropriate approach is taken based on those findings, the rot wont stop.

Edited November 26, 2011 by ~Anne~

[sandgrubber]

If the right support was provided, it would also slow the decline of breeders. It all works together. Breeders need support. Currently, there is inadequate support and promottion it seems.

Its not about support its about over regulation. Breeders arent walking away because the ANKC doesnt support them.

Unless you actually suvey breeders you haven't any real evidence about why they are walking away. Chances are, it could be that they feel óver regulated' but by the same token, that doesn't mean that promotion and or support won't turn things around.

Further, what is stopping new breeders coming into the fold? I can't see that the same influences would affect both groups.

Much like the debate about the originating source of dogs in pounds, unless a fact finding mission is instigated to determine the actual lay of the land, and a considered and appropriate approach is taken based on those findings, the rot wont stop.

I agree that study trumps opinion.

But study requires hypotheses to test.

I'd suggest the decline in breeders has multiple economic/social causes.

1) Breeding is time consuming and everyone is pressed for time. More women are employed than in past decades. And there are a lot more options for using your leisure time than there used to be.

2) The real costs of breeding are high if you consider the cost of buying and maintaining an appropriate property.

3) Lack of welcoming entry. It's hard to find anyone in the pedigree world who welcomes a new entry into the world of dog breeders. You get dismissed as a back yarder if you have an entire bitch and decide to give breeding a try without first making a serious commitment. No one likes to feel judged. There are a group of people calling you names if you make a profit on a litter, which amounts to saying, you are required to operate at a loss: a big loss if you are one of those people who consider your dogs 'forever' pets, and end out supporting your brood bitches through their old age.

[~Anne~]

I'd agree that there would be multiple causes and I think that although there may be common ground, the reason behind a breeder leaving the hobby and a potential breeder not taking up the hobby, would be two different things as well.

Either way, promotion and support would assist regardless of the outcome of a reveiw.

A reveiw would be the first step in the right direction though.