Have We Got Our Priorities Right?

[Bobby_The_Samoyed]

I wish you guys could steer the converstation back in the direction the OP had intended to be. Its actually a very intresting point and i wouldnt mind hearing what everyone has to say on it

[minimiss]

OK this thread has deviated very much from my original intention. I’m sitting here tossing my hands up and pleading “not guilty’.

Obviously there is a lot of personal feelings I have accidentally brushed, but that was far from the intention of my original post (it had nothing to do with breeders, take a chance to read my OP), though I did engage (my bad).

I will toss out my 2 cents for what it’s worth purely as an owner of a purebred registered dog, while I believe open and robust debate is good, this kind of debate on a public forum does not help anyones cause. For me it deters any slight ambition I had for breeding.

LOL I was excited I thought people were replying to my original post (naive )

I think you'll find in breeding, showing, or any other hobby or profession (something which breeding is not - hence people being very pationate about their opinions) you're not going to get sweet little angels without an opinion and get along 100% of the time... So you learn to deal with it and do your own thing. Why would you let any one else deter you from your ambitions?

[~Anne~]

In my Professional life I spend my days teaching people how to promote and market themselves. They are highly educated and very capable in their chosen profession but they are not trained in promotions or marketing.

The training and support works and works well. They welcome the support.

The ANKC could learn a lot from this program of support. It could easily be adapted and used to help breeders promote the excellence of the purebred dog. Then perhaps the sentiments expressed in this thread by non breeders would be made redundant.

[~Anne~]

Blonde-Phoenix, thanks I didn't realise that there was such a statement mentioning promotion in their charter. (sorry too hard to quote when I am on my phone but I refer to your post on page 1)

It would be interesting to seek a view from the ANKC about the accusation of them failing to provide truth in that statement.

[Gayle.]

Even if ANKC go to great lengths to improve their promotion of pedigree dogs and spend squillions of dollars on media campaigns, events and improving public awareness, it will all be for nothing if those breeding the dogs don't start treating enquiries (even stupid, mis-spelt and uninformed ones) with respect.

Or at least keep their typing fingers to themselves on public forums. Really, it's not a good look for pedigree dog breeders when someone logs onto a public internet forum and finds posts from breeders ridiculing the people emailing or phoning them with enquiries. They are there for everyone to see....forever!

And no, it's not all breeders but it's enough that those types of threads are generally prominent within the first few pages of just the type of forum a potential pedigree dog owner might find when searching for information about pedigree dogs and how to find a breeder.

[~Anne~]

To be fair, I think we all get that idea.

If a program to support breeders in positive promotional tactics was introduced, with resources made available, then the issue of breeders creating negative impressions could be vastly reduced. At the same time, the benefits of purebred dogs could be promoted.

For example, I have seen many things written on breeder websites that send out confusing and or wrong messages and sites that are very unprofessional or just plain ugly. The ANKC could provide template webpage looks, self-help guides on positive writing, and perhaps even a phone line or email advice system for those needing support.

It takes the whole community to promote purebreds, not just the ANKC. There is no point saying "if breeders didn't do this or say that...." because that won't change anything.

[mita]

I think it best to define the role of the ANKC before making comment on what they do effectively or ineffectively.

I believe that historically they were record keepers and registry and coordinated peer competition.

They are not lobbyists or responsible for the promotion of purebred dogs although I understand they have some presence in these areas.

Perhaps another group or sub group of the ANKC should be formed to fill the gap given the need. Promotion and marketing doesn't come cheap though, it would possible require an increase in fees. Would members accept this I wonder.

That's a spot on comment.

I'd only add that should a sub-group of the ANKC be formed in order to promote purebred dogs, memberships should be open to breed fanciers. And there should be public activities where breed fanciers could take part with their purebred pets.

The American Kennel Club hosts an occasion like that, once a year, called Purebred Pride day. Fanciers of purebreeds, gather in parks & other venues across the country to promote awareness of the purebred breeding world.

Meanwhile, I find that our purebreeds do some 'selling of themselves'. Our dogs get a lot of public attention & interest.

But that's where I find people saying things like, 'I didn't know pet people could buy puppies/dogs from 'show people'!'.

I've lost count of the number of good pet people that I've now put onto the same bunch of good registered breeders. And there's only positive feedback on how lovely the pets turn out to be.

Even tho' word of mouth is a powerful means of spreading information and sources, there really needs to be some efficient organised way of doing it, too (like you've suggested).

Edited November 19, 2011 by mita

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Anne I agree you are on to something . I love the idea of breeder support, I don’t think that it would be a difficult or expensive thing to implement. Offer breeders some webpage templates, ideas and maybe a list of dos and don’ts.

And yes everyone plays their part, we can’t rely or expect the ANKC or any organisation to do all of the work. Even I think I have a role to play purely as an owner and I do take it seriously. I educate people about my dogs breed with honesty (he’s not for everyone), try to gently sway those I know in to choosing a purebred and definitely promote basic training (not matter the dogs origin).

Mita I think a ‘purebred pride day’ would be great to see here in Australia, lets get the message out that purebreds are not just about prancing about a show ring, they also make incredible and healthy pets and companions.

[indigirl]

You know BP your 'prancing around the show ring" comment is quite insulting. No one is forcing you to show dogs, but belittling those of us who do is bloody rude. Showing is something I enjoy, I find it relaxing and nice chilled out way to spend a weekend.

If I was contacted by someone about a puppy and they belittled the showing of dogs I would probably thank them and tel them I had nothing available. Not because I am obsessed with showing, but because i want the ppl who own my puppies to have a good r/ship with me. I want them to be able to contact me freely, and I want to know how and where my babies end up. If a potential buyer is ridiculing something Im passionate about, that doesnt bode well for our future relationship.

This is a purebred dog forum, if you really dislike ppl who are into dog showing I wonder why you bother coming here?

For what its worth I feel I am always answering enquiries as I also run a breed rescue. Sometimes the ppl who enquire sound like uneducated bogans... however I always reply politely and encourage more communication with them. I really do try not to judge a book by its cover. Just because someone sounds like a bogan it doesnt mean they wont make a fantastic owner. However if they then start to insult me and my dogs well sorry, thats a deal breaker.

If these ppl who are making enquries to breeders are not able to refrain from sarcastic belittling comments (such as your prancing around the ring dig), then no wonder they arent getting positive responses. Basic social skills go a long way. Im a bit weary of the finger being pointed at breeders as being nasty uptight pigs - how about the rude arrogant uneducated puppy applicants start to accept some responsibility for their piss poor social skills?

[minimiss]

You know BP your 'prancing around the show ring" comment is quite insulting. No one is forcing you to show dogs, but belittling those of us who do is bloody rude. Showing is something I enjoy, I find it relaxing and nice chilled out way to spend a weekend.

If I was contacted by someone about a puppy and they belittled the showing of dogs I would probably thank them and tel them I had nothing available. Not because I am obsessed with showing, but because i want the ppl who own my puppies to have a good r/ship with me. I want them to be able to contact me freely, and I want to know how and where my babies end up. If a potential buyer is ridiculing something Im passionate about, that doesnt bode well for our future relationship.

This is a purebred dog forum, if you really dislike ppl who are into dog showing I wonder why you bother coming here?

For what its worth I feel I am always answering enquiries as I also run a breed rescue. Sometimes the ppl who enquire sound like uneducated bogans... however I always reply politely and encourage more communication with them. I really do try not to judge a book by its cover. Just because someone sounds like a bogan it doesnt mean they wont make a fantastic owner. However if they then start to insult me and my dogs well sorry, thats a deal breaker.

If these ppl who are making enquries to breeders are not able to refrain from sarcastic belittling comments (such as your prancing around the ring dig), then no wonder they arent getting positive responses. Basic social skills go a long way. Im a bit weary of the finger being pointed at breeders as being nasty uptight pigs - how about the rude arrogant uneducated puppy applicants start to accept some responsibility for their piss poor social skills?

I think this is a great answer. I do also get the impression that most buyers feel like they have a 'right' to be purchasing any puppy they please and for whatever reason they want and the breeder has to oblige. I think a lot of personality comes across in how people conduct emails / phone conversations. It's not always an English being a 2nd language issue either and/or a poor grasp on the English language. The school I work at is an English school for international students, now it's nothing remotely close to breeding, but I deal with many overseas agents via email where English is not their 2nd language and sometimes they're not particularly great at it BUT you can always differentiate the nice and professional from the ones trying to get students and visas for a quick buck.

It does work 2 ways but I do believe some puppy applicants do need to be more considerate. Usually starting out a conversation on the wrong foot from stupidly not thinking about what you're saying probably warrants a response in the same tone. Breeders get hundreds of enquiries - I'm sure they're fairly apt it weeding out the badies... They may get in wrong a few times, but they're still protecting their breed and their passion.

[~Anne~]

I believe it's more than just English and articulation. The most important thing is understanding that not everyone shares the same beliefs, understanding or knowledge that you do.

Culturally, there is a massive difference in where dogs and cats fit into society and how they are cared for. There is also massive differences in each society itself. Just look at the differences in this thread.

Learning to communicate with all types, regardless of culture, social group or English skills would be an asset that would go toward the positive promotion of purebred dogs. This too can be taught and resources provided to assist purebred breeders who need and want it.

[Zug Zug]

As a buyer (at last, after an extended search) I think that it is actually difficult to get a pedigree dog of your chosen breed at times. Much harder than racing off to a pet shop or whatever.

Partly because of the wait. And partly because all of the criticism between breeders of different lines.

Got there in the end. But that's what you need to fight in your marketing. That it's worth the wait. And that other lines are also good dogs.

If you can, given the competitive nature of showing dogs.

[mita]

Mita I think a ‘purebred pride day’ would be great to see here in Australia, lets get the message out that purebreds are not just about prancing about a show ring, they also make incredible and healthy pets and companions.

I believe you didn't mean to be insulting about the 'prancing around the show ring' comment. I think you were suggesting what can be in the pet buying public's mind....that showing dogs is like the supermodel world, but for 4 leggeds. And that there's some level of artificiality about it. Which, of course, is not true.

I actually tell people of the advantages that dogs and dog owners gain from the purebreed show world.

First, it opens up breeds to public scrutiny and measuring against standards. NOTHING like that exists for the dogs produced by puppy farmers and backyard unregistered breeders.

Second, everything connected with showing, provides the most fantastic socialisation opportunities for the dogs. And every bit of scientific evidence points to the fact that it's socialisation which makes dogs good companion pets.

From a young age, the 'show' dogs travel in cars, get used to being around other dogs, walk well on a lead, get touched by a stranger (as in judging), see lots of people going by.....and join in groups as their breeders happily socialise, too.

In fact, 3 Australian breeders (of my fancied breed) just posted a pic on the international breed list telling how happy and relaxed they were, with their dogs, as they met up at a recent show.

I replied that they were not the only ones happy & relaxed. So were their lovely dogs.

I'm going to ask their permission can I use that photo to show pet buyers what I've been talking about.....how the showing of dogs by interested & caring breeders, provides the most brilliant socialisation for dogs.

Not surprisingly, I've had 3 retired dogs from 1 of those breeders in the photo.....& they are the most social and confident little dogs. In my reply, I said I feel like their social secretary and driver!

Edited November 20, 2011 by mita

[Maddy]

Edit..

Somehow ended up in the wrong thread

Edited November 20, 2011 by Hardy's Angel

[indigirl]

As a buyer (at last, after an extended search) I think that it is actually difficult to get a pedigree dog of your chosen breed at times. Much harder than racing off to a pet shop or whatever.

Partly because of the wait. And partly because all of the criticism between breeders of different lines.

Got there in the end. But that's what you need to fight in your marketing. That it's worth the wait. And that other lines are also good dogs.

If you can, given the competitive nature of showing dogs.

But see I would not want someone to think they can easily get one of my puppies. I dont WANT to sell them to jsut anyone. I am looking for a specific type of home and a specific type of owner. That is my choice as the breeder, and its a positive thing for the breed I feel as they are much likely to end up in the wrong hands. So what if a puppy isnt easy to buy? I am subject to the same issues if I choose to buy a puppy and I accept and respect it may take me several years or more to get a pup of my choosing. Having to wait for something is not always a bad thing. I mean what is the alternative?? To have puppies available constantly to anyone who wants one? How does that make us any different from a puppy farmer?

I am not a nazi at all, and I welcome newbies with open arms but I need to be convinced that the owner without prior breed experience has studied up on the breed and that they will provide the right type of home. I need to feel some kind of connection with the new owners as I hope they will remain in touch with me for many years to come. I need to know they have an understanding of the breed and its specific needs.

I dont think its criticism between breeders of different lines that makes it difificult to get a pup. Its about supply and demand, plus how fussy/particular the breeder is about who gets a pup. Also everyone always wants a blue bitch puppy, and there are only so many of them to go around lol.

[Gayle.]

Being selective as to who you sell to doesn't mean you have the right to ridicule or be rude to those you don't want to sell to. Nor does it give you the right to post their enquiries on public forums for others to make fun of.

I'm not saying you do Indigirl, but there are plenty of others who do.

And being selective and caring about where your puppies are placed is best practice, and no, no one expects you to have puppies available for whoever wants one and at all times. Just treat all potential buyers with respect whether you sell them a puppy or not and always be mindful that to them, you are the face of the pedigree dog world, so make it a friendly one. God knows it doesn't have a sterling image right now.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

You know BP your 'prancing around the show ring" comment is quite insulting. No one is forcing you to show dogs, but belittling those of us who do is bloody rude. Showing is something I enjoy, I find it relaxing and nice chilled out way to spend a weekend.

If I was contacted by someone about a puppy and they belittled the showing of dogs I would probably thank them and tel them I had nothing available. Not because I am obsessed with showing, but because i want the ppl who own my puppies to have a good r/ship with me. I want them to be able to contact me freely, and I want to know how and where my babies end up. If a potential buyer is ridiculing something Im passionate about, that doesnt bode well for our future relationship.

This is a purebred dog forum, if you really dislike ppl who are into dog showing I wonder why you bother coming here?

For what its worth I feel I am always answering enquiries as I also run a breed rescue. Sometimes the ppl who enquire sound like uneducated bogans... however I always reply politely and encourage more communication with them. I really do try not to judge a book by its cover. Just because someone sounds like a bogan it doesnt mean they wont make a fantastic owner. However if they then start to insult me and my dogs well sorry, thats a deal breaker.

If these ppl who are making enquries to breeders are not able to refrain from sarcastic belittling comments (such as your prancing around the ring dig), then no wonder they arent getting positive responses. Basic social skills go a long way. Im a bit weary of the finger being pointed at breeders as being nasty uptight pigs - how about the rude arrogant uneducated puppy applicants start to accept some responsibility for their piss poor social skills?

Indigirl I do apologise that you have misinterpreted my statement it was flippant I admit (inverted commas would have been prudent), but it was meant to highlight the attitude of a large proportion of the public rather than my own opinion.

I will standby my belief that the purebred world is about more than showing though. All aspects are important and no single aspect is more important than another. I do understand the level of defensiveness that has been shown as 'show dogs' have been getting a pretty bad rap lately, but I don't think it serves any of us well to leap on the defensive. I again agree with Mita's statements showing dogs does allow great opportunities for socialisation and training but that message is just not getting through. This goes back to the original intent of this post "why is this not getting through to the public, who is responsible and what can we do?"

Why do I bother to come here? Because I care about and want to openly discuss issues relating to purebred dogs with others who care about purebred dogs. I don't see where I have said a word against purebred dogs, nor that I have anything against showing. In fact I've spent plenty of time at shows assisting my dogs breeder. Sure we wont always agree but I don't think that lessens my right to post.

What I do find odd is the number of breeders jumping from 1+1 and getting 4, correct me if I'm wrong but I have definitely not (and I'm pretty sure no one else has on this thread) suggested that breeders should lower their selection criteria when it comes to potential owners. I will stick with my belief that no puppy inquiry should be posted on a public forum for ridicule.

The "blue bitch puppy" comment is a little too cute for my liking but I guess we purebred owners are not informed enough to get the insinuation ;)

[indigirl]

BP the blue bitch puppy comment was meant literally. For some reason everyone wants blue pups, usually bitches. As blue is a recessive colour they are often not readily available. Not many ppl in my breed are producing blues. There has been lots of threads over the years here on ppl's perception of blue dogs as being rare, and therefore joe public is often willing to pay a much higher price for a 'rare blue' pup.

Approx 80% of my puppy enquiries are from ppl wanting a blue pup, usually a bitch.

[sandgrubber]

You know BP your 'prancing around the show ring" comment is quite insulting. No one is forcing you to show dogs, but belittling those of us who do is bloody rude. Showing is something I enjoy, I find it relaxing and nice chilled out way to spend a weekend.

I think the OP posed some great questions.

No one is forcing? What about the recent praise of DOL for excluding puppy listings from people who don't compete either in show or other trials? Sorry, if you aim to produce good healthy pets with excellent temperament, you don't respect the show ring, and you make your position clear, you're going to get dumped on by the show crowd.

I wish the 'recording of pedigree' function that the CC's serve could be expanded to include more information on longevity (record DEATHS as well as births), temperament, and health. I agree that the CC's should serve limited functions and try to stay out of politics. But I'd love to see them get in bed with open registries and expand the 'pedigree' to include things other than titles.

I'm in the USA now, and I don't find the AKC's promo's very convincing. They also push a bunch of commercial stuff and generally, the almighty dollar has too much sway in their ranks.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Indigirl, I guess we can put both misunderstandings down as a great example how dangerous the written/typed word can be, it’s very open to personal interpretations.

I don’t want to get bogged down in the ‘blue’ issue, but I think it’s an example of when a puppy inquirer can accidently cross some secrete line and get off on the wrong foot. I’d hate to think that preference for a colour would automatically preclude someone from consideration. Appearance is a factor and while it should not be the only factor it is still important, I don’t think many people choose a dog/breed they don’t find attractive. This sort of inquiry is a great opportunity to increase the puppy inquirers knowledge. Yes not everyone will listen and some will rush straight out and get their ‘rare’ blue pup from where ever they can, others may still get their blue pup but are able to make a more informed decision, and others may decide that other factors are more important.

Sandgrubber, transparency is one of the things I’d most like to see. The breed I own has a publicly available database on the internet (it’s not run out of Australia) which includes hip and elbow scores. I think this is great and would love to see it more commonly. I assume it would come down to breed specific clubs to drive this sort of initiative. I do realise some may be concerned that a little information can be a dangerous thing, but I truly believe it’s far better to be on the front foot than constantly fighting back after the attack.

I would also imagine that ANKC registered purebred dogs (no matter the breed) are unlikely to have been involved in any fatal (to a human) dog attack, less likely to be involved with other attacks and less likely to be abandoned and mistreated, but I’ve never seen anyone pushing these sort of points.