Aidan3 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Suzanne Clothier highlights a dangerous misconception in the dog world. Dr Ian Dunbar (whom I respect and admire greatly) isn't the only person who makes this sort of off-the-cuff remark so I'm not sure that it was necessary to single him out, but the point Clothier makes is spot on. http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/perfectly-normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 agree with Suzanne Clothier, not all dogs are born normal, physically or mentally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Great article. I think in the past people were too quick to blame dogs ("he's stupid/viscious etc") however the pendullum has swung too far back. Even on this forum, people often say that you can take any pup, socialise and train it and it will work out well. If that's the case why do we tell people to look at the temperament of the parents? I have a dog (well, bitch, but I struggle with that term...) who was used for breeding on a puppy farm. Both her and her sisters had the same miserable upbringing. They were rescued and stayed with a foster carer in exactly the same environment. Within a few days most of Lucy's siblings were interacting with the foster carer. Not Lucy. She exhibited much more extreme fear and she holds onto it to this day (things have improved a lot, but I don't hold hope of her ever becoming a happy-go-lucky dog). Six dogs, same environment but very different outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 20:00 - 25:00 for a more in-depth look at this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Variation is the driving success of sexual reproduction and I often inwardly groan when people insist that all dogs are completely a product of the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Yes I agree with her too, I believe some dogs are born not quite right, I think my dog is one of these - at home he can swing from happy and loving to agitated and angry in seconds, and then swing back again, all with no apparent trigger. I often joke that he has the canine version of bipolar but I suspect he is just not wired quite right. Like Megan I have accepted the fact he will never be 'happy go lucky' but he has more good moments than bad. In hindsight there were signs of this and of a very nervous nature when we went to pick him up at 8 weeks, I was just too blinded by puppy love to see them at the time, but he is still our special little man even if he is completely mental! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) *** Edited March 2, 2012 by gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 yes it is refreshing to read that My first puppy was definitely not right. I put so much time and effort into raising him; and felt that guilt that she talks about because I thought it must have been because I'd done everything wrong. As time went on though, and my experience with dogs has grown I can see clearly how abnormal he was. It is good to hear someone talk about it because people can lose confidence when they believe the problem lies solely with them; when in actual fact there is something not right with their dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Sibs Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Thanks!! Thats an interesting read I always said that my 2 weren't normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Couldn't agree more. I wish the deterioration of temperament was as visibly apparent, and as media friendly, as development of extreme physical characteristics. In my book, the first advice to anyone with a severe behavioural problem should be "don't breed from him/her until you are sure it's not hereditary" . . . and talk to the breeder to make sure it's not a problem running in the bloodlines. Far too many folks are willing to forgive behavioural problems in a dog who does well in the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think we should also add to this discussion the changing societal expectations of dogs. What does "perfectly normal" even mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I always felt that my DA dog was not "normal" in temperament, but there were always so many other reasons given to me. Not knowing the early history, being an older pup, me being inexperienced with bullbreeds, me not being a tough enough pack leader... etc etc... Articles like this ease my guilt a little. Maybe she was never quite right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The more time I spend with dogs, the more I think dog behaviour is hugely genetic. Socialisation can help to band aid some genetics, but it's never going to solve innate behavioural problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 My girl is from working-lines, so she was never going to be "normal" by most definitions. On top of this, she hasn't got the ideal temperament for a working dog either. But she is special in the most genuine way, I love her dearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think we should also add to this discussion the changing societal expectations of dogs. What does "perfectly normal" even mean? yeah that's interesting I think first off 'normal' would go hand in hand with adaptive. But adaptive could be different depending on the purpose of the dog. I think genetic predispositions to anxiety are not adpative for any dog though. My girl is from working-lines, so she was never going to be "normal" by most definitions. On top of this, she hasn't got the ideal temperament for a working dog either. But she is special in the most genuine way, I love her dearly. I loved my less than normal pup with a passion too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I don't think that with the diversity of dogs and the large number in the world that they could all be "normal". Maybe in the wild those that are not normal do not survive long, killed either by their parents, siblings or inability to thrive and survive. I think normal should cover a certain amount of resilience and adaptivity. (OT - There is a book called "Who Moved My Cheese" by Dr Spencer Johnson, it talks about dealing with change successfully, it's a good read.) Has the definition of what Joe Public defines as a normal dog become narrower? I have my own "special needs" dog too. She certainly doesn't fit in normal parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I've had dogs that were typical dogs and have dogs that weren't quite right i.e. emotional balance / over stimulation etc - not all are created even and I think it's nieve to think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 No problem with loving, guiding, and adapting to a special needs dog, an unstable dog, etc. But they should not be bred from, even if they get their Gr Ch. And people with high drive working dogs should be extremely careful about placing pups in the 'burbs or city. Even if they're normal for working dogs, they're likely to go nuts without a job to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I always felt that my DA dog was not "normal" in temperament, but there were always so many other reasons given to me. Not knowing the early history, being an older pup, me being inexperienced with bullbreeds, me not being a tough enough pack leader... etc etc... Articles like this ease my guilt a little. Maybe she was never quite right. Of course she wasn't quite right. The people that sold her to you let you down in a big way by refusing to acknowledge that. There is a fair chance the reason she ended up being put up for rehoming in the first place was because she wasn't quite right. You did all you possibly could, I don't think you should feel any guilt. It was just very sad, that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Statistically, there are two sides of normal. We also need to pay attention to dogs who are better than average . . . sweeter tempered, more nurturing, calmer, more steady, intuitive of human ways, biddable . . . These are the dogs we should be breeding from . . . particularly as yards get smaller, lives get more hectic, and dogs in general get less opportunity to run free and 'be a dog'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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