Dog Park Rules / Law

[Kavik]

No one expects to have the park all to themselves, and certainly dogs will be dogs. However if I am obviously training or enjoying some play time with my dog in the far corner, and another person arrives at the park thinking its ok to do nothing to try and prevent their dog from running over to 'just say hi', then that is rude and ignorant.

This is my thought exactly. It is not like I am taking up the whole park, there is plenty of room for all (unfenced park, generally quiet) so there is no need for their dog to bolt the entire length of the park to bounce on mine when we were minding our own business training in one small section of the park - there is a lot of park they could go to that we are not occupying!

[spyke88]

my dog is one of those rude dogs that would given half a chance (and has) bolt to all the other dogs in the park without a care in the world to jump all over them. hence. he is leashed. he does not have a reasonable recall(despite hours upon hours of training) therefore i will not let him off around other dogs because i know the problems he can cause. sure there was a park in perth before i moved that we went to, but only at certain times with minimal dogs and owners and dogs that had gotten to know us. other owners should be just as intelligent. unfortunately a lot are not.

[BJean]

How do I know if the dog that is galloping towards me is friendly or not?

Well, it's usually pretty obvious, I find. Friendly dogs are loose with tongues flapping around and ears back while they run. Unfriendly charging dogs have ears forward, tail stiff, hackles up, often teeth showing and growling or roaring. I think they carry their heads lower. I don't often see unfriendly dogs charging.

I don't agree. In my experience polite dogs dont run up to strange dogs period.

Polite dogs (ie dogs not seeking confidence and not requiring to boss / lead / dominate other dogs) approach other dogs trotting or cautiously or in an arc; seeking also tacit permission form the dog they are approaching - this cannot be done at a gallop. imo galloping up to a strange dogs is reserved for the confident assertive types. And if they gallop up into the personal space of another like minded dog, this is when problems start. This is why any dogs running towards mine get called off, not because "my dogs are aggressive" but because the act of running directly towards myself and my dogs is not an act of peace.

Actually DA dogs don't need to approach roaring/growling either. Alpha true dominant individuals will approach directly with no need to bark or growl, they are always certain of any outcome and themselves. What is certain also is that they will immediately flatten any dog that does not give way to them. Sometimes they will flatten the dog for other reasons. So I dont think we can be looking for lolling tongues as the yard stick.

Edited November 12, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

Oh yay, every dog that comes bounding up to me with a lolling tongue and a happy expression is not going to be a concern for me. Probably true for 95% of dogs, but I care enough about my dogs, ESPECIALLY while they are only puppies, to not risk the 5%.

That dog might be a big happy bundle of friendliness until it realizes mine is an entire male. Plenty of dogs are cool, until something doesn't go their way.

Yep

[BJean]

Lilli, I have had a similar problem in the past when I lived in town. We had a large area backing our suburb which was classed as an 'offlead' area by council. Huge area - basically a long wide strip (about two or three good sized house blocks wide) backing the length of the suburb. Most people were good and if their dogs were offlead would call their dogs to them when passing another dog (lots of room to pass). Some people, however, took the 'offlead' rule to be as you describe it and let their dogs have a free for all and barrel up to other dogs, even if they moved to the side to give them plenty of room. I had particular problems with two ladies who walked a border collie and a standard poodle. My Pyrs werent the issue - I had at the time as well a Dalmatian who had been attacked by a Border Collie as a pup and could be reactive if black dogs in particular rushed up to her. Introduced properly she was generally ok, but in the situation of a loose dog such as this running up to her (as happened when she was attacked), she was far from happy and prone to act first and ask questions later. I would ALWAYS do the same thing as you - call out to the owners to 'call your dog please!' Some were good and would comply (they got a 'thank you!' and often we would then stop to chat - and if the dogs were comfortable they would sometimes then get to say hello and possibly play), but not these two ladies in particular who would give those same arguments 'this is an offlead area', 'my dog is friendly'.

In the end I did call council to discuss the situation. Their take is that I was completely in the right, had acted appropriately by reqesting the owner call their dog, my dog was under effective control and the other owner was at fault. Still didnt make the situation easier or more pleasant and I still have concerns that even though I would be in the 'right', the situation still puts my dog at risk. There may be a grey area to 'effective control' if the dog actually bites as the act may mean it was not being effectively controlled even though it was on lead (an extreme example would be an on lead dog dragging an owner towards an offlead dog and biting it would likely be seen as the dog on lead not being under effective control) though the argument would still be fairly well in your favour (according to my discussion with council) if, for example, your dog was the one on lead, the other dog approached your dog, the owner had been asked clearly and loudly to call their dog away and had either not done so or had done so and the dog had not responded, and the dog had approached right up in your dogs face, at which point your dog bit the other dog.

An 'offlead area' simply means a dog may be offlead if the owner has (and actually exercises!) effective control. It does not mean the dog must or should be offlead or excuse the behaviour of the dog when offlead. It means the owner has the option to do so if the dog is well enough behaved and will not interfere with other dogs. There are a LOT of people out there that simply dont get this and unfortunately they make it very unpleasant for everyone else.

I will admit though that I am just as angry at owners such as this for putting their OWN dog at risk. They have no knowledge of the other dog. They do not know whether it is ok with dogs approaching it or not. They are as a result putting their own dog in danger. Very irresponsible IMO.

As suggested I recommend you call the council and discuss how they view this type of situation where you are. In the context of your dog though I would choose words carefully as you dont want to leave yourself open to liability because you are aware your do 'could' act (who knows what way opinions go these days). Simply say it 'upsets' your dog when they approach like that. I will be interested to hear what they say.

Yes this is pretty much the situation.

I rang council and dog owners are not allowed to let their dog run or rush or BE PERCEIVED to run up towards anyone.

If an off lead dog runs up to my personal space and the owner does not call the dog away as asked, council interprets me requesting the owner to call away their dog as I am afraid of dog attack. Not that my dogs are aggressive.

[Kavik]

I don't agree. In my experience polite dogs dont run up to strange dogs period.

Polite dogs (ie dogs not seeking confidence and not requiring to boss / lead / dominate other dogs) approach other dogs trotting or cautiously or in an arc; seeking also tacit permission form the dog they are approaching - this cannot be done at a gallop. imo galloping up to a strange dogs is reserved for the confident assertive types. And if they gallop up into the personal space of another lie minded dog, this is when problems start. This is why any dogs running towards mine get called off, not because "my dogs are aggressive" but because the act of running directly towards myself and my dogs is not an act of peace.

Exactly my thoughts! Especially the bolded bit.

[Rebanne]

my dog is one of those rude dogs that would given half a chance (and has) bolt to all the other dogs in the park without a care in the world to jump all over them. hence. he is leashed. he does not have a reasonable recall(despite hours upon hours of training) therefore i will not let him off around other dogs because i know the problems he can cause. sure there was a park in perth before i moved that we went to, but only at certain times with minimal dogs and owners and dogs that had gotten to know us. other owners should be just as intelligent. unfortunately a lot are not.

[espinay2]

So true. The body language of a head on flat out approach is confrontational. It is understandable that a person or dog may view it as such, whatever the owner may think of the dogs intentions. As you say, in law it may also be considered 'rushing' which can be considered to be dog agression if the person it approaches percieves it as such. Given the current climate, it is just another way for owners to put their dogs at risk.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Had an interesting morning at the beach.

A large boofy rude soggy labrador - tried very hard to steal treats off me. And despite me pushing it away repeatedly the owners did nothing.

If my dog was trying to steal treats off anyone - and they pushed her away or turned away from her - I would call her back. Ie it's clearly not welcome - owner makes it stop. Not this Lab's owners. later it got distracted by a small fox terrier, and pursued it all over the beach. The foxie did not look like it was at all happy about it, had its tail between its legs and screamed the whole way and did not approach or play bow at the lab once. But was the lab put off? no. Did the owners do anything about it - no. Yuck.

I'm at a loss what to say to owners like that Lab's. They don't believe you when you tell them it's illegal for their dog to harrass other people, dogs or animals. And reporting it to council requires you to get the rego number of the harrassing dog (which may not even have one) and filling out four pages of paperwork. Unless some creature is bleeding - I'm not going to bother even though I'd like the rude owners to leash their rude dog.

Later - a large boofy victorian ridgeback decided to say hello in the hopes of getting some of my treats. I had chopped carrot today. And some kitten biscuits and kibble. Sigh. Anyway ridge back was so much more polite than lab. Ridgie did not try to climb in my lap like the labrador did. I didn't get slobbered on or soggified and he did a very nice sit or three for me - just for pats. And best of all - he had a couple of runs at zoomies with my dog. Though her circle work was a bit to tight for him. At least both of them had a run. Anyway - when the ridgie's owners and myself got some distance between us, he stayed politely with his owners - though for a little while I did think I'd successfully kidnapped him.

And just in case this hasn't been posted in this thread.

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/

I don't know why so many owners think it's ok for their dogs to be so rude all the time. And that it's ok not to do anything when someone else or their dog is clearly in distress. Even when packs of 20 or more dogs roamed the streets together - stuff like this didn't happen.

[Erny]

My understanding is :

"Off Lead" is permitted provided owners are able to retain effective control. I believe this to be an unspoken and spoken rule.

I also believe that if two dogs have a scrap and it is brought to the attention of the Council, the Council is likely to favour the case of dog who was on-lead.

But I don't think these two things make a ruling hard and fast in favour of the on-lead dog .... it depends on other circumstances, witnesses etc.

[Greyt]

I don't know why so many owners think it's ok for their dogs to be so rude all the time. And that it's ok not to do anything when someone else or their dog is clearly in distress.

Nobody on this thread is suggesting it is ok for dogs to be rude. Having an understanding of what off leash areas are like, and having successful strategies to deal with common scenarios is the important thing.

If we all lived in the land of, "Life should be like this, dog parks should be like this, dogs should be like this, dog owners should be like this", etc, you are in for a life of inevitable and constant disappointment.

On the other hand, if you are violent to other dogs, rude to other owners or screaming like a banshee as some have suggested, you can make both you and your dogs a target for violence.

[Greyt]

I can't help but feel that there are a bunch of very uptight owners on this thread whose past experiences are contributing to creating an atmosphere of anxiety where they are putting themselves and their dogs at risk.

Clearly some people should choose not to use off-lead areas instead of employing tactics which are provocative to dogs and humans.

clearly some people need to realise how rude they and their bloody dogs are and not let anything off lead that does not have a relaible recall.

Why should I be prevented from using a lovely walking track cause people can't control their dogs? Why should my slightly anxious girl be denied a nice walk by the river? Why should I be denied a nice walk by the river with my dog who loved those walks?

But we have been denied those pleasures by people who obviuosly think the same as you

I have read your website and I applaud you on the lengths you have gone to to care for your dogs. I feel that you are a remarkable person in so many ways. And it is truly a shame that your dogs do not get to walk by the lovely river. But given your judgment that your dogs are at an unacceptable risk, your decision is laudable.

But I do not see how using violence against other dogs or being rude to other owners ought to be part of a responsible dog owner's tool kit.

[corvus]

How do I know if the dog that is galloping towards me is friendly or not?

Well, it's usually pretty obvious, I find. Friendly dogs are loose with tongues flapping around and ears back while they run. Unfriendly charging dogs have ears forward, tail stiff, hackles up, often teeth showing and growling or roaring. I think they carry their heads lower. I don't often see unfriendly dogs charging.

I don't agree. In my experience polite dogs dont run up to strange dogs period.

I said friendly, not polite. ;)

Polite dogs (ie dogs not seeking confidence and not requiring to boss / lead / dominate other dogs) approach other dogs trotting or cautiously or in an arc; seeking also tacit permission form the dog they are approaching - this cannot be done at a gallop.

I agree, but when it's happening to me I don't do anything if the dog appears friendly. A polite dog would adjust their angle so they are not coming head on, or slow down, and most do that so there's no need for me to do anything. I'm not sure if people on this thread differentiate. Regardless of politeness, I've never had a friendly dog approach and turn unfriendly without further interactions prompting the unfriendliness, so I wouldn't lump it in as part of an approach.

Actually DA dogs don't need to approach roaring/growling either. Alpha true dominant individuals will approach directly with no need to bark or growl, they are always certain of any outcome and themselves. What is certain also is that they will immediately flatten any dog that does not give way to them. Sometimes they will flatten the dog for other reasons. So I dont think we can be looking for lolling tongues as the yard stick.

I do not think 'alpha true dominant' individuals are particularly common in suburban dog parks. We've had bullies and dogs that have something to prove and entire males are another matter again. Some desexed males behave like entire males. I appreciate that some dogs are magnets for trouble for whatever reason. There are always going to be exceptions to any general rule of behaviour. I maintain that it's pretty obvious when you're being approached by a friendly or unfriendly dog at a run. I got it wrong once when a dog flew across 70m of mudflat with his teeth showing, hair bristling, everything stiff, and roaring. I thought we were dead, but he pulled up short, had a tense sniff, then invited my dog to play. Whatever! Never mistaken an unfriendly dog for a friendly one. Well, not since I was 12, anyway.

[Rebanne]

But I do not see how using violence against other dogs or being rude to other owners ought to be part of a responsible dog owner's tool kit.

If moron's can't understand basic manners and can't/won't control their dogs then I am being responsible by defending my dogs in any manner I see fit. When you have one of your dogs attacked you may feel differently about whether any dog should be given the benefit of any doubt on it's intentions.

My very first loyalty is to MY dogs, no one elses.

[Rebanne]

Never mistaken an unfriendly dog for a friendly one. Well, not since I was 12, anyway.

perhaps you might like to explain why Eric has been in so many fights then? It is something you have stated in other threads.

[Kavik]

How do I know if the dog that is galloping towards me is friendly or not?

Well, it's usually pretty obvious, I find. Friendly dogs are loose with tongues flapping around and ears back while they run. Unfriendly charging dogs have ears forward, tail stiff, hackles up, often teeth showing and growling or roaring. I think they carry their heads lower. I don't often see unfriendly dogs charging.

I don't agree. In my experience polite dogs dont run up to strange dogs period.

I said friendly, not polite. ;)

I don't want friendly RUDE dogs rushing me either.

[Rebanne]

I actually went to a fully fenced dog park in another town yesterday with a friend. There were clear rules written up which included dogs must be under effective control at all times. It did also have a warning that your dog might be approached by other dogs.

Enter a young cattle dog cross, very over the top, very friendly, with not an ounce of training, as told to my friend and I by the grils who had come in with the dog and it's owner. At the other end of the park was a young couple with a toddler and a young lab or golden, not sure which. Toddler was with her Mum every time I looked up that way, as in right next to her. Young cattle dog cross ran the full length of the park to jump all over the toddler! Toddler screaming and crying and of course cattle dog cross totally ignored her owner's calling her. Young couple with toddler and young dog quickly left. Poor people, trying to do the right thing by giving their dog a bit of an off lead run as a family unit and it was totally ruined by another dog. Luckily the toddler has her own dog to help her realise not all dogs jump all over you. Just up one end of the dog park doing their own thing, trying to be good dog owners.

Then there was the swf who considered the park was all hers and had to run up and challenge each and every dog that entered. When my friend gathered her dog in she was laughingly told that the swf was friendly and not to worry if friends dog objected as swf needed taking down a peg!

I can safely say, seeing what went on yesterday, that neither my dogs or I are missing out on anything wonderful and I will be quite happy to never set foot into another fenced off leash park again.

[anniek]

But I do not see how using violence against other dogs or being rude to other owners ought to be part of a responsible dog owner's tool kit.

If moron's can't understand basic manners and can't/won't control their dogs then I am being responsible by defending my dogs in any manner I see fit. When you have one of your dogs attacked you may feel differently about whether any dog should be given the benefit of any doubt on it's intentions.

My very first loyalty is to MY dogs, no one elses.

absolutely spot on

And my "responsible dog owner's tool kit" to defend MY dogs, contains a big stick!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If we all lived in the land of, "Life should be like this, dog parks should be like this, dogs should be like this, dog owners should be like this", etc, you are in for a life of inevitable and constant disappointment.

Yes, this pretty much sums up my experience of fully fenced dog parks and the kind of people who take their dogs there.

If they were encouraged just a little bit - to teach their dog appropriate manners, then the fenced dog park would be a much nicer place for everyone. Instead it is a haven for rude people and their rude dogs and anyone else in there will be bullied, slobbered on and sometimes have horrific injuries inflicted on their dogs and themselves.

That's why we have manners and social ettiquette - to prevent fights - so as long as lots of dog owners have no clue the connection between their rude dog's behaviour and fights between dogs and between humans - I will be avoiding the fenced dog parks.

What sucks about that is that in my area - the unfenced dog parks are gradually being closed to dogs and we're all expected to go to the tiny fenced ones full of rude people and rude dogs.

It's not good for me or my dog.

[sallyandtex]

I don't know why so many owners think it's ok for their dogs to be so rude all the time. And that it's ok not to do anything when someone else or their dog is clearly in distress.

Nobody on this thread is suggesting it is ok for dogs to be rude. Having an understanding of what off leash areas are like, and having successful strategies to deal with common scenarios is the important thing.

If we all lived in the land of, "Life should be like this, dog parks should be like this, dogs should be like this, dog owners should be like this", etc, you are in for a life of inevitable and constant disappointment.

On the other hand, if you are violent to other dogs, rude to other owners or screaming like a banshee as some have suggested, you can make both you and your dogs a target for violence.