sheena Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Guys I have been reading VAL bonney's book who's the boss.. So in this situation she would I think say:you grab the scruff of the neck as soon as pup moves off the matt to go in the kitchen and say bad dog. You can can then immediately tell it to sit ( if the pup will sit) and then when the pup has say good dog, the pup will understand it is then getting rewarded, it has forgotten about being reprimanded about the kitchen so won't think it is getting praise for that. The key is to do this straight away as if you leave it even a minute after the pup has left the mat going into the kitchen the pup will not know why it is in trouble .The pup will soon learn.. I am loving the book has anyone else read it? I'm new to this so please tell me if I have it wrong :-) Sorry, but how does a 12 weeks old pup understand what "bad pup" means And I think the time frame would be more like 1 second not one minute. Why not put up a barrier so it can't get into the kitchen & then "train" it not to got there. It's not going to happen overnight...training a behaviour like that takes time & in the meantime keep it out of that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 when my dog was 12 weeks - I put her in a crate when I was cooking or washing up. Otherwise she surely would have had boiling water or a chopping knife dropped on her. Now she will stay on a mat. I make her do a stay on the mat before she gets permission to eat her dinner and the mat is next to her dinner bowl so she likes the mat spot a lot. Not quite as much as right under my feet in the kitchen but she gets the message about "Mat!". She barks at me out of frustration if she doesn't know what she needs to do to get the treat or make me happy or whatever. If I ask her to do something and she doesn't get it, or doesn't understand the point - she barks. When she does this I sometimes give her the "bark" command. Which ironically - shuts her up - ie to get the treat for the bark command - only requires a pre-bark growl. And it makes her think which also shuts her up. So I agree with the others - for a 12 week old puppy's safety - use a barrier for the kitchen. And for your own peace of mind - teach bark on command. I've got a lot of respect for Val Bonney but I wouldn't use that method on a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 She barks at me out of frustration if she doesn't know what she needs to do to get the treat or make me happy or whatever. If I ask her to do something and she doesn't get it, or doesn't understand the point - she barks. that sounds fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So in this situation she would I think say:you grab the scruff of the neck as soon as pup moves off the matt The pup will soon learn.. Wow - over reacting much for such a young puppy and such a minor "offence" The pup will soon learn you are an unpredictable nut-job not to be trusted But is it over reacting when a bitch would grab the sruff of the neck to let the pup know were showing bad behaviour.. I don't mean grab it and man handle the pup just grab and talk in the voice you would use when you are correcting.. Guys I have been reading VAL bonney's book who's the boss.. So in this situation she would I think say:you grab the scruff of the neck as soon as pup moves off the matt to go in the kitchen and say bad dog. You can can then immediately tell it to sit ( if the pup will sit) and then when the pup has say good dog, the pup will understand it is then getting rewarded, it has forgotten about being reprimanded about the kitchen so won't think it is getting praise for that. The key is to do this straight away as if you leave it even a minute after the pup has left the mat going into the kitchen the pup will not know why it is in trouble .The pup will soon learn.. I am loving the book has anyone else read it? I'm new to this so please tell me if I have it wrong :-) Sorry, but how does a 12 weeks old pup understand what "bad pup" means And I think the time frame would be more like 1 second not one minute. Why not put up a barrier so it can't get into the kitchen & then "train" it not to got there. It's not going to happen overnight...training a behaviour like that takes time & in the meantime keep it out of that area. They don't it is the tone in which you say it isnt it? same as when you reward or praise it is the tone they don't understand your words just the tone of your voice.. And I said not to leave it a minute as they will forget.. And i didn't mean it would be an overnight fix lol you would have to do it a few times like any training.. Gee makes it hard when you read things which make sense as in the way dogs behave as in a pack structure and we are supposed to show them we are the pack leader the dominent one.. Am I way off I thought this book made sence as it talks about looking at dogs behaviour and how they behave in a pack which is how we need to treat them so we stay ontop.. Anyway I was actually asking if what i was reading was right, I guess everyone has their own way of understanding and training their dogs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 when my dog was 12 weeks - I put her in a crate when I was cooking or washing up. Otherwise she surely would have had boiling water or a chopping knife dropped on her. Now she will stay on a mat. I make her do a stay on the mat before she gets permission to eat her dinner and the mat is next to her dinner bowl so she likes the mat spot a lot. Not quite as much as right under my feet in the kitchen but she gets the message about "Mat!". She barks at me out of frustration if she doesn't know what she needs to do to get the treat or make me happy or whatever. If I ask her to do something and she doesn't get it, or doesn't understand the point - she barks. When she does this I sometimes give her the "bark" command. Which ironically - shuts her up - ie to get the treat for the bark command - only requires a pre-bark growl. And it makes her think which also shuts her up. So I agree with the others - for a 12 week old puppy's safety - use a barrier for the kitchen. And for your own peace of mind - teach bark on command. I've got a lot of respect for Val Bonney but I wouldn't use that method on a puppy. I actually thought when I read the section on control that it was over the top but then when she gave the example of the bitch grabbing the pups scruff of the neck when they needed it, it made sense, although I am not sure that i could lol .. Apart from that section it is a fantastic book to understand your dog which my breeder recommended.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Everyone has their own ways of training their pups, but personally, I have found the best way is by "shaping". That way the dog learns to work it out for itself..."if I do whatever, I get whatever"...no force needed whatsoever. Some people call it the "Premack Principle". But I think I would be starting our with a physical barrier. I would never use any physical force when training a puppy...I would be keeping that for emergencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) example of the bitch grabbing the pups scruff of the neck when they needed it, Bitches DO When pups bite, or play rough, or steal food ..extreme things...and it's usually only once or twice .The shock/pain work pretty well. If a bitch wants her pups to stay away from something ... or stay somewhere.. she more often than not nudges, pushes, or blocks with her body - her body language such that pups know to stay put...and only baby puppies - it would be rare to see a bitch doing this with a 12 week old , I think. Edited November 10, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) example of the bitch grabbing the pups scruff of the neck when they needed it, Bitches DO When pups bite, or play rough, or steal food ..extreme things...and it's usually only once or twice .The shock/pain work pretty well. If a bitch wants her pups to stay away from something ... or stay somewhere.. she more often than not nudges, pushes, or blocks with her body - her body language such that pups know to stay put. x2 Forget it. Edited November 10, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 :-) I think I need to read more, I'm a bit worried about going to puupy training now, I was going to go to Val Bonneys school .. Thanks guys I love this forum sorry to the OP for butting into your thread .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think I need to read more, read LOTS discuss everything watch others Evryone is different- every dog is different , and there are many many roads leading to the same result ! Enjoy the journey . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So in this situation she would I think say:you grab the scruff of the neck as soon as pup moves off the matt to go in the kitchen and say bad dog. You can can then immediately tell it to sit ( if the pup will sit) and then when the pup has say good dog, the pup will understand it is then getting rewarded, it has forgotten about being reprimanded about the kitchen so won't think it is getting praise for that. The key is to do this straight away as if you leave it even a minute after the pup has left the mat going into the kitchen the pup will not know why it is in trouble .The pup will soon learn I think the idea of following up a reprimand with an immediate opportunity for reward and praise is good but, I think it would be better if the reprimand wasn't needed. So, Susan Garrett has largely given up reprimands and non-reward-markers (NRM) even as simple as oops. I confess I still use the NRM or a zzt sound or something low key to let my dog know she's not going to be allowed to steal the treat or whatever. If she ignores - I cover the treat up. (its yer choice game). So my version with what I know now and didn't when my puppy was 12 weeks, of that instruction would be to take puppy and put it on the mat - and reward for being on the mat - and ideally - reward at a high rate with high value treats for staying on the mat. But as soon as you stop rewarding a 12 week old puppy is going to get up and wander. So I would put it back on the mat - without saying anything. And count to three - if its still on the mat - praise and treats. But you don't get to cook dinner doing that. Hence - the crate time. Eventually the puppy has sufficient value for the mat - that it will stay there. But 12 week old puppies are very easily distracted. And the kitchen is full of distracting things - boss and food included. I'm sure that Val Bonney would have updates to her book - same as SG has updates to hers. Would be very interesting to go to her school anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I spen last night reading the book further and the puppy section was quite a bit different to the control section, even though the term puppy was used.. Maybe I interpreted (sp) it incorrectly.. I'm just wanting to learn ro much before my pup comes home :-) I will stl go and check out her puppy school program she does seem to have an amazing understanding of dog behavior.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I spen last night reading the book further and the puppy section was quite a bit different to the control section, even though the term puppy was used.. Maybe I interpreted (sp) it incorrectly.. I'm just wanting to learn ro much before my pup comes home :-) I will stl go and check out her puppy school program she does seem to have an amazing understanding of dog behavior.. An excellent book to get, if you have or are about to get a puppy is The Focused Puppy, from Clean Run The Focused Puppy It has been on Free Postage for over a year now, but unfortunately not any more, but it is still an excellent book & a "must have" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Your pup isn't 'backchatting', she's frustrated. Crate train her, then there is no worry about her getting into things she shouldn't. It will also make her more comfortable/confident and less stressy when she's left alone. I spen last night reading the book further and the puppy section was quite a bit different to the control section, even though the term puppy was used.. Maybe I interpreted (sp) it incorrectly.. I'm just wanting to learn ro much before my pup comes home :-) I will stl go and check out her puppy school program she does seem to have an amazing understanding of dog behavior.. An excellent book to get, if you have or are about to get a puppy is The Focused Puppy, from Clean Run The Focused Puppy It has been on Free Postage for over a year now, but unfortunately not any more, but it is still an excellent book & a "must have" Yes, great book! I lost my first copy from Clean Run but ended up buying another from here: http://www.agilityclick.com/prod53.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Your pup isn't 'backchatting', she's frustrated. Crate train her, then there is no worry about her getting into things she shouldn't. It will also make her more comfortable/confident and less stressy when she's left alone. Check out the time of this post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I have a Rotty which frequently talks back to me. I think for some people this must sound mad.......but if you saw if you would agree they are talking back!! If she does not want to go outside and I tell her to she tells me about it while she is heading out the door!! She is a very very stong willed girl and we have had to be very firm with her. She is now 8 and unfortunetly she has still not grown out of this. My best stragety is BRIBES!!!! When she goes out to bed at night she get a treat. So as soon as you say bedtime she runs outside waiting her her treat. If there was no treat she would resist and tell me about it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Your pup isn't 'backchatting', she's frustrated. Crate train her, then there is no worry about her getting into things she shouldn't. It will also make her more comfortable/confident and less stressy when she's left alone. Check out the time of this post!! Still had half an hour to go on SA time... 10:41 and I'm wondering why you're excited. Oh - Sydney time... more exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DobieMum Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 My kitchen is out of bounds to any of the dogs (puppies included). If they come in there, I all of a sudden start clapping my hands and loudly make nonsense noise, once their out they immediatly get praised and told what a good dog they are. My dobie puppy is now 16 weeks and knows the kitchen is out of bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I spen last night reading the book further and the puppy section was quite a bit different to the control section, even though the term puppy was used.. Maybe I interpreted (sp) it incorrectly.. I'm just wanting to learn ro much before my pup comes home :-) I will stl go and check out her puppy school program she does seem to have an amazing understanding of dog behavior.. An excellent book to get, if you have or are about to get a puppy is The Focused Puppy, from Clean Run The Focused Puppy It has been on Free Postage for over a year now, but unfortunately not any more, but it is still an excellent book & a "must have" The focused puppy is also available from here which is based in Sydney. http://www.wagschoolbooks.com.au/shop/books/puppies.html?p=2 I was going to buy it at the APDT conference but bought Dr Sophia Yin's book Perfect Puppy in 7 Days instead (out of stock atm)as she's one of next years speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitasthe14me Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hi all, I have a 12.5 week old staffy pup that is great and learning and developing very well. Recently however, as she has found her voice and she has taken to talking back, at times when asked to do something. It usually happens when I ask her to "go back", out of a place such as the kitchen, that we are training her not to enter. She basically gets down on her haunches and does some little barking back at us and this is followed by a little dance. I have heard some different remedies such as ignoring...however she is in a place the we are not allowing and we cant ignore and just let her get away with being disobedient, because we are trying to stop her form back chatting. I have seen first hand and know that raising the voice further doesnt work, but soemtimes frustration does get the better of you? Any suggestions? Thanks I dont understand why the talking back is an issue. The dog is just vocalising. Its your perception that views this negatively as back chatting and being disobedient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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