jacqui835 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Last Sunday I went out to give another dog training club a try, and I don't know if I can post it here so I'll keep the name secret, but I still get shivers down my spine thinking about them. Their motto was that dogs will do things because of 2 reasons. Firstly, so something will happen, and secondly so that something won't happen. So they said they said to teach your dog to lie down, you say down, then when the dog doesn't, step on the lead next to their neck as hard and quick as possible so force the dog down. He demonstrated with an old lab, grey around the muzzle, and when it wouldn't go down, he stepped on the lead so hard the dog collapsed. The lab didn't go down next time, so then they said the problem was that they weren't doing it hard enough :'( He did it about 6 times and the lab still wouldn't go down - I don't think it understood what was being asked of it, given that according to the owners it had never been trained before. But the worst was their corrections. Now I am someone who believes in consequences for dogs for bad behaviour, and have used a check chain to correct my dog many a time, as well as grabbing the side of his neck, talking sternly to him etc. But I do not believe in hurting your dog or abuse for any reason, and this was disgusting. This one woman was holding her dog off the ground with the check chain. The dog would scream once back on the ground (I don't think it was able to make any noise whilst suspended due to choking) and would bite the chain, her shoes everything in an almost delusional state. The dog was a medium sized schnauzer (ie not the toy or the giant). Many other people were swinging their dogs around off the ground also to correct them, rather than just the distracting jerk to the side that I do with my dog (of course they told me I wasn't yanking hard enough, and that I needed to toughen up). People kept saying to me oh it looks bad but they get such great results - obviously they're used to never seeing new people again. And this place was very expensive. First visit was free, but next week they wanted me to bring $160 to join the club and $186 for basic classes, then $160 once he moved into intermediate levels (which they thought would be in about 2 weeks since Sammy knew everything) and god knows how much at advanced. Thing is though I will happily spend more than this on training my dog, but I just did not feel right about this place at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Doesn't sound as if those methods fit with today's approach Is there a regulatory body or anywhere where your observations can be reported? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Run away, don't walk! Is this a private club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 How sad:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If they did it 6 times and the lab didn't obey, how can they say it is working? I'm with Persephone, I'd not only be avoiding the place but looking for somewhere to report them too. I don't have a problem with precise correction either but from description it sounds closer to abuse. And not even getting results from it anyway. I'd be keen to give them a few 'corrections' to see if it stops them being idiots : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Aren't we past this crap? So sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freundhund Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This club hasn't moved on from the 1970's. This is how I learnt to train my first couple of dogs back then. Yes, your dog will eventually do what you ask, BUT don't esxpect a willing worker, don't expect a happy dog and don't expect to feel happy in yourself. Most clubs these days have enlightened people who, see that to get great competition obedience, agility or any other form of training that the positive methods do give you a better job, it might just take a few extra weeks, and more thought and work on the owners part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 I definitely won't be going back, I had nightmares on Sunday night about the schnauzer screaming, maybe I've lived a sheltered life but I've never heard a dog make noises like that before. And the way it was biting the chain and the shoes and looking up at its owner with fear, well it was very distressing. The trainers didn't hold the dogs up by the chains though, it was just some of the people there. The trainers just said that the answer to everything was that you needed to be firmer on your dog and they didn't say anything to the people hurting their dogs. I think it was a private club - if anyone wants to know feel free to message me and I will send you the website link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I'd report them to the RSPCA -trainers have a responsiblity to correct students who are abusing their dogs. I don't have an issue with corrections per say, but you need to teach your dog want you want first (in many different varieties) before it is "fair" to correct them. Even then, it needs to be applied humanely. I'd love to say I'd never seen this kind of thing, but I've been to KCC a few times on the w/end and have seen people yell "HEEL" at their dogs and before the dog had any time to respond, lift them up by the check chain (front paws off the floor) and yank the dog into place. You gives a s@%#@$ about results when you have to resort to that to get them? I often wonder why those people do obedience (or even have dogs)? I thought we were meant to do dog sports to bond with our dogs/give them something they enjoy/geet them to use their brains etc. If you have to constantly correct your dog, then you have to wonder how effectively you have actually trained the behaviour. I'm sure if I beat my dog into submission I could have a quiet, well-behaved dog. Doesn't make the abuse any less disgusting. Edited November 9, 2011 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 that's awful There's a lady around here who does that sort of training, but not as bad by the sound of it. was truly awful to see. I think the owners must feel awful afterward, I guess a lot of them don't say anything because they feel that the instructor is the 'expert'. No wonder many clubs went down the 'purely positive' route in response to such training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you think it is abuse, you should report it. I kind of feel like all dogs should be able to attend obedience, but if they have serious issues, they should have very experienced instructors that know how to deal with them. The schnauzer sounds like quite a dangerous situation for the owner and potentially for others around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I would not go back and I would report them to the RSPCA - its very disheartening that trainers are teaching people this sort of rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I use aversives but if I saw someone doing that to a poor old dog I'd put the chain around their neck. A dog needs the foundations before it can understand training, there are some stubborn ones yes but if you have to mash a dog into the ground repeatedly you need to go learn what training really is. The only time I have lifted a dog off the ground was when I was about to be attacked by it. It's the only way to avoid a hard bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you think it is abuse, you should report it. I kind of feel like all dogs should be able to attend obedience, but if they have serious issues, they should have very experienced instructors that know how to deal with them. The schnauzer sounds like quite a dangerous situation for the owner and potentially for others around it. The poor thing is no doubt reacting to the pain being inflicted on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilmisssascha83 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 OMG this makes me so sad. I wouldn't go back, I wouldn't if you can report them to someone. RSPCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezy Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 the club I used to go to was good, but one person/trainer was inclined rough , she could incite it in some of the others,I saw her lift her dog by the ears once , when it dropped in the sit stay[groups] sm1 else's dog dropped and the person watching was directed to do it to that dog, I at that point said"if any1 does that to my dog I will do it to you !!!!"not necessary at all IMO . I use the term rough lightly, should be cruel heartless oxygen thief , who i might add is a judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 the club I used to go to was good, but one person/trainer was inclined rough , she could incite it in some of the others,I saw her lift her dog by the ears once , when it dropped in the sit stay[groups] sm1 else's dog dropped and the person watching was directed to do it to that dog, I at that point said"if any1 does that to my dog I will do it to you !!!!"not necessary at all IMO . I use the term rough lightly, should be cruel heartless oxygen thief , who i might add is a judge I bet i can guess who it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I would certainly like to know.....who???? If you could PM me. When I took my now 4 yo girl to Puppy preschool 4 yrs ago, the instructor there was a "little" on the "rough side" & I often blame that experience on some of the problems I have with my girl. With the new puppy, there was no way I was going to take him to Puppy School. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hoep I have replied to everyone now - between this, lure coursing and everything else my inbox is a confusing place at the moment. If you haven't received a reply though msg me again and I'll make sure I get back to you. Gosh went to another club last night and had an amazing experience - working high drive dogs and driven competitive people all doing their thing and the dogs were loving it. I don't think there's anyway I could enjoy training my dog if my dog dreaded it and I had to physically hurt him to get results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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