Alkhe Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Personally I don't like the idea. Even if the person teaching it had the experience to explain the subtleties of body language, it is doubtful that the students would learn from a class what experience needs to give them. Reading body language wrong can end in disaster. Body language is a total picture, it cannot always be qualified in terms of posture or ear set or tail set. Only someone who can interpret the total picture, can really read body language. Not only that but because body language is often a response, things can and do change very quickly. If you are not reading it instinctively, the situation may well have changed before you have even had a chance to consciously analyze it. I have 4 dogs here. In a situation where each were to present their belly to another dog, it would actually mean 4 different things as there is a set of nuances that come before and after this act. There's no way a class can teach anyone how to read subtleties in individual dog behaviour, and no one has any business trying to teach that in a class. It's a one-on-one job. But imagine if no one ever gave advice on the meaning of body language because it was too easily misinterpreted. How do any of us learn? There are some things that are pretty universal. Something is, I think, better than nothing. The world is full of dogs acting up because no one noticed when they were pouring out tonnes of displacement and avoidance behaviours. I agree corvus. I think a lot of dog owners are completely unaware of dog body language, and that it can actually tell us something and be interpreted, and that it's different from human body language. This kind of course may be less valuable the more experienced the person, but I think there's definitely a place for it. I think it's a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 A little basic education is safer than not having a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 Just wondering if there would be interest in a class teaching people to read their dogs and other dogs and how to respond to the signals their dogs are giving them? Kind of like a dog park etiquette/organic socialisation/speak dog class. There's no way a class can teach anyone how to read subtleties in individual dog behaviour, and no one has any business trying to teach that in a class. So which is it ? Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously the earlier post was a general sort of statement and the later post a clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'm suprised that so many people are against it. People are going to take their dogs to parks etc anyway, why not arm them with a bit of info (when your dog snaps at another dog, time to remove it; why letting your dog hump at parks isn't a bad idea). Sure, dogs can be subtle, but dogs are going to interact no matter what. You'd be suprised at how many people think a little dog yapping at a big dog is being brave. Maybe if they understood that their dog was scared they might remove them from the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Whats the target market here though? People with a more than average interest in dogs or the average person. I cover this sort of thing in my puppy classes- knowing full well that 90% of my clients will frequent off lead areas, i think its important they understand some basic etiquette and info. Whether or not you could get people to attend a class specifically for this purpose though- i'm not so sure. People don't know what they don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkhe Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'm suprised that so many people are against it. People are going to take their dogs to parks etc anyway, why not arm them with a bit of info (when your dog snaps at another dog, time to remove it; why letting your dog hump at parks isn't a bad idea). Sure, dogs can be subtle, but dogs are going to interact no matter what. You'd be suprised at how many people think a little dog yapping at a big dog is being brave. Maybe if they understood that their dog was scared they might remove them from the situation? Exactly. And wagging tail means a happy dog, humping means horny, tongue out is smiling.. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brennan's Mum Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'd be interested but it would depend on the teacher, their range of experience and their education. Turid Rugaas is some one I'd definitely want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 It would depend on who was teaching the class. yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry's Mum Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Depending on who was teaching it then yes I would be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 Whats the target market here though? People with a more than average interest in dogs or the average person. I cover this sort of thing in my puppy classes- knowing full well that 90% of my clients will frequent off lead areas, i think its important they understand some basic etiquette and info. Whether or not you could get people to attend a class specifically for this purpose though- i'm not so sure. People don't know what they don't know. Oh, I don't think it would be 100% dog behaviour stuff. Probably aimed at average dog owners doing puppy or basic manners classes, but with an emphasis on introducing the notion that dogs don't love everything we do to them but they will tell us when they don't love it and it's nice to listen to them. I dunno, I think that maybe if you give people some basic info and some rules of thumb to guide them out there in the world, perhaps they can muddle through better than if they'd been given no basic info or rules of thumb. Things like "is the tail loose or stiff?" and "if in doubt, move farther away" is stuff that's pretty easy to remember and get into the habit of doing and quite useful. What do you think? I wish that people could grasp that dogs don't think like people do, but that might be asking a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'm suprised that so many people are against it. People are going to take their dogs to parks etc anyway, why not arm them with a bit of info (when your dog snaps at another dog, time to remove it; why letting your dog hump at parks isn't a bad idea). Sure, dogs can be subtle, but dogs are going to interact no matter what. You'd be suprised at how many people think a little dog yapping at a big dog is being brave. Maybe if they understood that their dog was scared they might remove them from the situation? yeah I agree with this I think a lot of people don't even understand that dogs have body language apart from a wagging tail which they believe only means happy anyway! I think if you could teach some of the less knoweldgeable/experienced dog owners about the basics then they would at least start to take more notice and be able to read their dog and others dogs a bit better which would be good. Ofcourse different people would want a different level of depth depending on prior knowledge. I personally wouldn't neccessarily mind who ran it as even if I didn't agree with them it would make me think. Although I guess it would be a bummer to pay a lot of money for it and not get much out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy's mum Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Sounds interesting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) I think that it's an interesting idea! My area of interest would be in terms of the different types of body language between breeds. For instance, my two tend to along really well with other working dogs but they are very wary when meeting "large squish faced dogs" - boxers etc. Someone told me that it's because the heavy breathing can come across as quite menacing. For me it would be quite nice to know of the breeds where I might want to structure the introduction a little differently etc. Also, most people assume that 'wagging tail' means happy dog but that isn't always the case etc so there are definitely some basic body language myths that could probably be defused. Not sure if they could decipher my dogs' ear semaphore though - I still find that cryptic Edited November 7, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbaudry Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I think that's a very good idea! I'd love to be able to read "my" breed better, let alone other dogs. I was just thinking about it the other day at puppy school when I couldn't figure out whether my pup was too hot / tired / uncomfortable with the situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Personally I think these basics should be included in puppy classes and beginners obedience. I would like to see some course/standard set for training obedience trainers. I took a pup to one a while back purely for socialisation and couldn't believe the mish-mash of directions being given, no help to a novice! Just have your dog on the left and walk around in a circle Edited November 7, 2011 by pebbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 Not sure if they could decipher my dogs' ear semaphore though - I still find that cryptic Some dogs have very waggy tails. I never noticed until recently how expressive those tails are. The wagging changes from moment to moment and sometimes I can't figure out why. I was watching this dog watch a little girl do cartwheels. His tail wagged, but stopped when she was upside-down, then started again with a moment of renewed vigour when her feet touched the ground again. I could not figure it out. My supervisor suggested an upside-down girl doesn't make sense to him, so when she was the right way up again he felt a little relieved, or the world made sense again so the tail went back to default wagging state. Similar to the way Erik flips out when someone jumps in the pool. Pool on its own he can deal with, but when people are in there he just does not know what to make of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeyjangels Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I would be very interested in attending such a class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 If Steve (K9 pro) was teaching it it would be a good thing, if you, not so much because you lack the necessary experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Oh, I don't think it would be 100% dog behaviour stuff. Probably aimed at average dog owners doing puppy or basic manners classes, but with an emphasis on introducing the notion that dogs don't love everything we do to them but they will tell us when they don't love it and it's nice to listen to them. I dunno, I think that maybe if you give people some basic info and some rules of thumb to guide them out there in the world, perhaps they can muddle through better than if they'd been given no basic info or rules of thumb. Things like "is the tail loose or stiff?" and "if in doubt, move farther away" is stuff that's pretty easy to remember and get into the habit of doing and quite useful. What do you think? I wish that people could grasp that dogs don't think like people do, but that might be asking a bit much. Good Trainers already teach this in puppy school and basic/intermediate obedience. People won't do two types of puppy classes, and most want a puppy 'playgroup' more than anything else, you have to let them down gently that 1 hour of free-for-all is counter productive, so I'm not sure how much take-up you'd get. Particularly if you're in an area where there's established puppy schools and clubs with good reputations pre-existing. Kerrie Haynes-Lovell - sure, but she has spent many many years working with other animals as well as dogs. People who work in shelter environments as behaviourists/assessors are also good as they get a rich education in a short period of time- if they can read all the communication correctly. ;) Edited November 7, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 If Steve (K9 pro) was teaching it it would be a good thing, if you, not so much because you lack the necessary experience Yup if Steve was teaching it I would love to take my dogs along because he's brilliant with animal psychology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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