Question About French Bulldog Pricing

[huga]

I love the Frenchies too. I may even become a Frenchie owner in the near future. Just unsure about the health risks with this breed. The Frenchies i've met out and about in the past at dog parks ect sound like they have trouble breathing and about to drop dead.

Brachy breeds are noisier breathers than other breeds, it's inevitable. However, my beautifully bred frenchie and my BYB pug are worlds apart in their breathing. You need to meet Sid, RL ;)

Edited November 9, 2011 by huga

[RL1]

It's funny you say that huga . A Pug is the other breed I've been thinking about. Again i know nothing about this breed either.

Can you post a photo of Sid for us all to see ?

[Frodo's mum]

if your not use to any braccy breeds you will find they are noisier breathers when playing

my 4 frenchies are super fit I don't have any issues..but then again you don't let them run " until they sound like they want to drop dead "

but if you want a dog to take for a run beside your bike or do heaps of ball chasing

then a frenchie is most likely not the dog your are after....they are companion dogs

as with all braccy breeds they have to be watched in the heat and not over excerise in it

I think as with any breed do your homework before you jump in and buy..not every breed suits everyone

Edited November 8, 2011 by Frodo's mum

[huga]

He is a puppy in my sig photos. But here is the most recent one:

(he is usually white, but we're having some work done at home)

Good with kids:

My shadow:

[koalathebear]

This has been a really interesting discussion. Given the rather wide range of potential health problems to which this breed could be prone and the difficulty with successful delivery and then raising a successful litter (supporting chests/breathing etc) - is any research being done about ways to strengthen the breed? For instance, I know that Border Collie breeders contributed and now Kelpie breeders contribute towards research into Cerebellar Abiotrophy in the breed. Given how popular and lovable this breed is, it must surely be a concern that it is comparatively less 'healthy' than a number of other breeds and efforts should be made towards enhancing health and quality of life?

[oakway]

This has been a really interesting discussion. Given the rather wide range of potential health problems to which this breed could be prone and the difficulty with successful delivery and then raising a successful litter (supporting chests/breathing etc) - is any research being done about ways to strengthen the breed? For instance, I know that Border Collie breeders contributed and now Kelpie breeders contribute towards research into Cerebellar Abiotrophy in the breed. Given how popular and lovable this breed is, it must surely be a concern that it is comparatively less 'healthy' than a number of other breeds and efforts should be made towards enhancing health and quality of life?

Good heavens what more can the ethical careing breeders do, they are already testing for everything and x raying.

[Gayle.]

Testing and x-raying is one thing, using the data to make good decisions about which dogs to breed with is another.

[oakway]

Testing and x-raying is one thing, using the data to make good decisions about which dogs to breed with is another.

I am only discussing ethecial careing breeders that do the right thing and import the very best of stock from around the world that may be bred with.

Those that only breed the VERY best to the VERY best. With every known test done.

If they didn't they would not be getting the results they are.

[koalathebear]

Testing and x-raying is one thing, using the data to make good decisions about which dogs to breed with is another.

That's what I'm getting at. No matter how gorgeous and lovable this breed seems to be, clearly there appear to be certain health issues that need to be resolved for the benefit of the breed, people who breed the dog and people who own the dog so I was wondering what was happening with that or if nothing could be done at all. Extensive health difficulties/extensive health testing/low survival rates should really be ringing alarm bells to try to identify root causes rather than being worn as a badge of honour. Or is the 'rarity' what is also contributing to the demand and high price? By way of example, studies are done about the high mortality rates into Bernese Mountain Dogs and presumably steps are being taken to try to reduce the incidence of cancer. In working line Kelpies with ataxia, breeders are being asked to not cull the affected dogs, but not to breed from them and to provide data for research etc.

I am only discussing ethecial careing breeders that do the right thing and import the very best of stock from around the world that may be bred with. Those that only breed the VERY best to the VERY best. With every known test done. If they didn't they would not be getting the results they are.

But if this is being done, why are there still such extensive health issues? What is the root cause? Presumably when you mentioned the 24 hour care required for new pups, that was by ethical breeders breeding fro the best of the best. If one is breeding from the best, why is that extremely high level of intervention required? Not trying to be provocatively - genuinely curious!

Edited November 9, 2011 by koalathebear

[oakway]

Testing and x-raying is one thing, using the data to make good decisions about which dogs to breed with is another.

That's what I'm getting at. No matter how gorgeous and lovable this breed seems to be, clearly there appear to be certain health issues that need to be resolved for the benefit of the breed, people who breed the dog and people who own the dog so I was wondering what was happening with that or if nothing could be done at all. Extensive health difficulties/extensive health testing/low survival rates should really be ringing alarm bells to try to identify root causes rather than being worn as a badge of honour. Or is the 'rarity' what is also contributing to the demand and high price? By way of example, studies are done about the high mortality rates into Bernese Mountain Dogs and presumably steps are being taken to try to reduce the incidence of cancer. In working line Kelpies with ataxia, breeders are being asked to not cull the affected dogs, but not to breed from them and to provide data for research etc.

I am only discussing ethecial careing breeders that do the right thing and import the very best of stock from around the world that may be bred with. Those that only breed the VERY best to the VERY best. With every known test done. If they didn't they would not be getting the results they are.

But if this is being done, why are there still such extensive health issues? What is the root cause? Presumably when you mentioned the 24 hour care required for new pups, that was by ethical breeders breeding fro the best of the best. If one is breeding from the best, why is that extremely high level of intervention required? Not trying to be provocatively - genuinely curious!

Because some of you may be purchasing off breeders that are not as particular as some.

It has already been implyed that some breeders are asking the same price for non tested stock as the breeders of tested stock.

Who are you going to purchase off the breeder that tests their stock or the breeder that does not. Both asking the same price. I know who I am going to purchase off. This applys to any breed that has testing available.

[koalathebear]

Because some of you may be purchasing off breeders that are not as particular as some. It has already been implyed that some breeders are asking the same price for non tested stock as the breeders of tested stock.

Who are you going to purchase off the breeder that tests their stock or the breeder that does not. Both asking the same price. I know who I am going to purchase off. This applys to any breed that has testing available.

Thanks for your replies. I guess it was this post that really piqued my interest:

I have two very close friends that breed frenchies(I consisder top class show and breeding stock) and I can assure you they earn every penny they get.

For the first 6 weeks you DON'T leave the pups, and I mean that, not even to go to the bathroom. You have a second person to watch the pups for you or you do it in shifts. The pups are well known for swimmers and if that happens you know what that means in this breed. That is hours and hours of supporting the chests and getting them through a very critical time.

If even top class show and breeding stock are so vulnerable and require so much intervention, doesn't that speak to some sort of fundamental health issue that needs resolving?

My two are working line dogs and I don't know anything about French Bulldogs which is why I'm so curious.

[oakway]

Because some of you may be purchasing off breeders that are not as particular as some. It has already been implyed that some breeders are asking the same price for non tested stock as the breeders of tested stock.

Who are you going to purchase off the breeder that tests their stock or the breeder that does not. Both asking the same price. I know who I am going to purchase off. This applys to any breed that has testing available.

Thanks for your replies. I guess it was this post that really piqued my interest:

I have two very close friends that breed frenchies(I consisder top class show and breeding stock) and I can assure you they earn every penny they get.

For the first 6 weeks you DON'T leave the pups, and I mean that, not even to go to the bathroom. You have a second person to watch the pups for you or you do it in shifts. The pups are well known for swimmers and if that happens you know what that means in this breed. That is hours and hours of supporting the chests and getting them through a very critical time.

If even top class show and breeding stock are so vulnerable and require so much intervention, doesn't that speak to some sort of fundamental health issue that needs resolving?

My two are working line dogs and I don't know anything about French Bulldogs which is why I'm so curious.

I think I know what you mean. This doesn't just apply to Frenchies it applies to may of the Brachy breeds. I don't breed these breeds. I can only pass on what I am told about these breeds over the years.

But I am sure if the dedicated breeders continue the problems will decrease. But I believe the problems will only decrease if people purchase off these dedicated breeders who test, test then test some more.

This applies to any breed.

I have been led to believe that the incidences of things that can go wrong are on the decrease. It will continue to decrease only by the efforts of these dedicated breeders.

I don't know.......maybe the worst problem may lay with the breeders that don't test and sell surviving puppies to unsuspecting owners that may try and in turn breed the pups for profit and keep selling on un tested stock that when possibly bred together will only perpetuate the situation.

My only advice is to go with the dedicated breeders that are doing the right thing in trying to eliminate the problems.

It will take time there is NO overnight cure.

From me who is still watching over a litter of four long nose pups that have NO breathing or health problems that I am aware of.

Why am I doing it.......because I care and I love them. and that I take pride along with many others in producing a healthy well bred pup for others to enjoy also.

[Dame Aussie]

Because some of you may be purchasing off breeders that are not as particular as some. It has already been implyed that some breeders are asking the same price for non tested stock as the breeders of tested stock.

Who are you going to purchase off the breeder that tests their stock or the breeder that does not. Both asking the same price. I know who I am going to purchase off. This applys to any breed that has testing available.

Thanks for your replies. I guess it was this post that really piqued my interest:

I have two very close friends that breed frenchies(I consisder top class show and breeding stock) and I can assure you they earn every penny they get.

For the first 6 weeks you DON'T leave the pups, and I mean that, not even to go to the bathroom. You have a second person to watch the pups for you or you do it in shifts. The pups are well known for swimmers and if that happens you know what that means in this breed. That is hours and hours of supporting the chests and getting them through a very critical time.

If even top class show and breeding stock are so vulnerable and require so much intervention, doesn't that speak to some sort of fundamental health issue that needs resolving?

My two are working line dogs and I don't know anything about French Bulldogs which is why I'm so curious.

I've always been curious about this too, about what is being done to improve the health of breeds that are prone to so many issues? Or if that's just the way they are and will always be?

All good....oakway answered as I was typing

Edited November 9, 2011 by Aussie3

[RL1]

if your not use to any braccy breeds you will find they are noisier breathers when playing

my 4 frenchies are super fit I don't have any issues..but then again you don't let them run " until they sound like they want to drop dead "

but if you want a dog to take for a run beside your bike or do heaps of ball chasing

then a frenchie is most likely not the dog your are after....they are companion dogs

as with all braccy breeds they have to be watched in the heat and not over excerise in it

I think as with any breed do your homework before you jump in and buy..not every breed suits everyone

No i've never owned or been around any braccy breeds. Only Rottweilers and Dachshunds, but a Frenchie or Pug are coming under serious consideration.

He is a puppy in my sig photos. But here is the most recent one:

(he is usually white, but we're having some work done at home)

Good with kids:

My shadow:

Thanks. Sid looks like a real character.

[dancinbcs]

Because some of you may be purchasing off breeders that are not as particular as some. It has already been implyed that some breeders are asking the same price for non tested stock as the breeders of tested stock.

Who are you going to purchase off the breeder that tests their stock or the breeder that does not. Both asking the same price. I know who I am going to purchase off. This applys to any breed that has testing available.

Thanks for your replies. I guess it was this post that really piqued my interest:

I have two very close friends that breed frenchies(I consisder top class show and breeding stock) and I can assure you they earn every penny they get.

For the first 6 weeks you DON'T leave the pups, and I mean that, not even to go to the bathroom. You have a second person to watch the pups for you or you do it in shifts. The pups are well known for swimmers and if that happens you know what that means in this breed. That is hours and hours of supporting the chests and getting them through a very critical time.

If even top class show and breeding stock are so vulnerable and require so much intervention, doesn't that speak to some sort of fundamental health issue that needs resolving?

My two are working line dogs and I don't know anything about French Bulldogs which is why I'm so curious.

Ideally every breed should be able to mate, whelp and raise their babies with minimal intervention but if you change the structure too drastically from that of a basic dog, there has to be consequences. Both British and French Bulldogs have spines that slope up rather than down towards the loin, and screw tails that are an extension of the spine. These are deformities of a normal spine. They also often have heads too large to pass through the mothers pelvis at birth and brachy faces that cause breathing problems and elongated soft palates. The awkward body shape and squashed face make mothering their babies a bit of a hit and miss affair as well. The breeds were developed into these shapes for reasons that no longer exist.

There are only two choices for these breeds. Preserve the breeds, while trying to make them as healthy as possible with those structures or let the breeds become extinct. Australia has some of the healthiest British Bulldogs in the world and international judges often comment on how impressive it is to see dogs that still look like BBs, running around the ring looking fit and active. We even have some lines that free whelp but keeping a breed like this healthy is a lot harder than keeping a basic dog shaped breed healthy. I don't know where the better Australian bred Frenchies rank health wise with others around the world but would imagine they are probably pretty good as well.

Finding DNA tests to control diseases is one thing, finding a way to make what are in effect very abnormally structured dogs healthy is another matter all together. Enthusiasts love their Bulldog breeds and I understand that and their quest to breed the best and healthiest examples that they canto preserve the breeds. What I cannot fathom is how these breeds can become so popular as pets with all the issues that go with them. The problem now is that the popularity means there are lots of people that do not understand the complexities of these breeds, jumping on the bandwagon to make a quick buck. This can only lead to lots of very unhealthy French ad British Bulldogs being bred and more ammunition for the anti-purebred dog campaigners.

[minyvlz]

Is this the most expensive dog breed here? Or are there pricier ones?

[dancinbcs]

Is this the most expensive dog breed here? Or are there pricier ones?

For a fairly common breed with not a lot of recent imports, I would say yes. British Bulldogs were always one of the most expensive and about a third more expensive than Frenchies until a couple of years ago but the sudden demand for Frenchies has increased the price to about the same as the British.

Some of the giant breeds have always been very expensive because of the high cost of keeping and raising them. The rarer the breed the more expensive due to the fact that the breeders have had to spend 10s of thousands on importing breeding stock. They never recoup the outlay but if others want the benefit of that outlay they should expect to pay a hefty price for it. I know when Neos were introduced they were charging about $4000 to lease a dog and you didn't even get to own it. No idea what price they are now. Some of the specialty GSDs from recent imports are also much more expensive than the locally bred ones.

[Gayle.]

Not all rare breeds are expensive though. Rare doesn't always equate to desirable and sometimes breeds are rare because few people want to own them.

[Merci]

I have to agree with dancinbcs. They pretty much cover the main reason why this breed has greater health issues. This and other small dog breeds we initially been bred for their looks not health/physical ability which is what working dogs were initially breed for.

My question and interest is then, why are frenchies that much more expensive than pugs, (assuming that it is based on their health requirements)? I assume given that both are brachies, have curlie tails, big heads,and have similar litter problems that they would be similarly priced.

[Steve]

In all honesty how much a dog or breed needs extra attention or care or testing etc makes little difference to what a breeder can ask for a price and what they will get.

Not much point in a breeder pricing their pups based on what it cost to produce them if no one will pay it.

100% its supply and demand .Some breeders may be able to nudge the prices up a bit based on what they can market themselves and their dogs as but at the end of the day you can tell me a dog is worth anything and it makes no difference if no one is prepared to pay it.

I dont believe a good breeder could ever price their dogs and get what they are really worth and therefore anything they can get is a good thing as it helps them to put back into their breeding program and the standard of care they give their dogs.

As more breed them or less people want them the price will come down - it's still basic economics. Always will be. Supply and demand.

Personally I think registered breeders who are doing it all right should put their prices up as this is one sure way to demonstrate the difference. If good breeders are marketed effectively then the ones who dont test and who are not registered etc are seen to be cheaper because its a knock off - and inferior product and not branded by a good breeder's prefix. It baffles me as to why registered breeders who test keep their prices as low as thse who dont .Each time they put their prices up the ones doing it right should go higher and educate the buyers as to what more they get for the extra price.