Carriers

[Bilbo Baggins]

Yes I have used Carriers in the past and will use again in the future. These Carriers are only ever mated to clears and all the litter is then DNA tested before they go off to their new homes. If used sensibly and correctly there should not be a problem.

Why are you testing the whole litter? i presume most of the litter would be going as pets and so if they are carrier or clear isn't important?

Becks by testing the whole litter you can know their status and can inform the new owner.

By knowing the status of all the litter you can make choices to onbreed from the clear and desex the carrier and thus remove the carriers from the gene pool.

As Eishund stated she has imported a dog that is a carrier. This is an ANKC FCI registered dog. Unfortunately most of the imported dogs are carriers and thus have to be tested.

So far every litter of White Swiss Shepherds in Australia has had 1 parent a carrier.

Previously the Australian bred White Shepherds were all clear of MDR1 so it was not an issue.

Semen of a carrier was imported and used in some lines so this introduced it to those Australian lines.

Some of the breeders of White Shepherds do DNA profile their litters.

[dancinbcs]

Yes I have used Carriers in the past and will use again in the future. These Carriers are only ever mated to clears and all the litter is then DNA tested before they go off to their new homes. If used sensibly and correctly there should not be a problem.

Why are you testing the whole litter? i presume most of the litter would be going as pets and so if they are carrier or clear isn't important?

For any recessive condition, where carriers are completely unaffected, there is no point in testing puppies that are going to be desexed pets. It doesn't matter if they are normal or carriers and just lines the pockets of the testing labs. All else being equal, you might decide to test several puppies to help you decide which one to keep but in most litters there is a stand out puppy and if that is the case, that should be the keeper regardless of it's DNA status. You only need to worry about it being a carrier when it comes to breeding the next generation. You should never compromise quality just to keep something that is DNA normal.

[sandgrubber]

I looked at some studies on EIC with Labs and I was really surprised how such a small ammount within the samples where clear.

Yup. And in the US you can find Master Hunters (the elite rank in retrieving competition) who are not just carriers, but AFFECTED!

All heritable conditions are not equal. As the genetic testing industry develops genetic tests, we have to get more sophisiticated in how we use testing.

[Dxenion]

I am wrestling with this decision now. My male is a carrier in a breed only recognised in Australian in 2009. Even if anyone was interested in his imported bloodlines, I am torn whether to use him. He is a carrier only (not affected) and as long as the dam is clear there are no problems, but if the concensus is to try and eliminate the mutated gene well then I shouldn't use him. I'm not sure where the breed stands on this gene as I've heard both arguments. He was selected and imported based on other factors - stud work was not a primary consideration. He will be desexed at about 2 1/2 years old anyway so I only have an 18 month window.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I am wrestling with this decision now. My male is a carrier in a breed only recognised in Australian in 2009. Even if anyone was interested in his imported bloodlines, I am torn whether to use him. He is a carrier only (not affected) and as long as the dam is clear there are no problems, but if the concensus is to try and eliminate the mutated gene well then I shouldn't use him. I'm not sure where the breed stands on this gene as I've heard both arguments. He was selected and imported based on other factors - stud work was not a primary consideration. He will be desexed at about 2 1/2 years old anyway so I only have an 18 month window.

Oh Dxenion that is really bad luck in a developing breed it really narrows the gene pool.

[OSoSwift]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Edited November 6, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Bilbo Baggins]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Unfortunately OSO there is 1 clear bitch in the country.

[OSoSwift]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Unfortunately OSO there is 1 clear bitch in the country.

Oh well that paints a different picture................

Maybe collect him and you may be able to use the semen later to increase the gene pool.

[becks]

Yes I have used Carriers in the past and will use again in the future. These Carriers are only ever mated to clears and all the litter is then DNA tested before they go off to their new homes. If used sensibly and correctly there should not be a problem.

Why are you testing the whole litter? i presume most of the litter would be going as pets and so if they are carrier or clear isn't important?

For any recessive condition, where carriers are completely unaffected, there is no point in testing puppies that are going to be desexed pets. It doesn't matter if they are normal or carriers and just lines the pockets of the testing labs. All else being equal, you might decide to test several puppies to help you decide which one to keep but in most litters there is a stand out puppy and if that is the case, that should be the keeper regardless of it's DNA status. You only need to worry about it being a carrier when it comes to breeding the next generation. You should never compromise quality just to keep something that is DNA normal.

Yes, that was my way of thinking which is why I wondered why some were testing the whole litter.

[Lowenhart]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Unfortunately OSO there is 1 clear bitch in the country.

And how many clear dogs? If the options are to breed carrier to carrier, why not use an imported carrier?

[Bilbo Baggins]

There are 2 clear dogs.

[Lowenhart]

There are 2 clear dogs.

So that means that if you only use the 2 clear males, you will have a genetic bottleneck in this country (and it's unlikely that all litters in the next 5 years will be out of these 3 clear dogs) unless you use carriers to carriers.

Edited to add - You want to avoid having everyone using the same 2 males, as you can end up with a different genetic disease you are not yet aware of spreading completely through the Australian gene pool.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Lowenhart

[Sandra777]

Edited to add - You want to avoid having everyone using the same 2 males, as you can end up with a different genetic disease you are not yet aware of spreading completely through the Australian gene pool.

Yes, I would much prefer to deal with the known and have a few more known and identified carriers in the gene pool than deal with "clear" dogs that turn out to be the source of a (possibly) worse condition 10 years from now. DNA testing is in it's infancy - we tend to forget that!

At the very least, collect the imported carrier for the future - you WILL regret it if you don't

[EISHUND]

If he is a carrier and has many other things to offer then I would use him to DNA tested clear bitches only.

I wouldn't say no I will not use him as he will not be affected and neither will his babies if the bitch is clear. You help expand the gene pool without producing affected dogs.

Unfortunately OSO there is 1 clear bitch in the country.

You might want to get your facts right before you go off publicly sprouting statistics about a breed pool you are not involved in as you are WRONG!

Denigrating the ANKC White Swiss Shepherd Dog genepool due to a mutated gene is ridiculous, there are so many other things that are of more concern. Just proves my point that when breeders choose to be responsible & test their stock, make their results public for the world to see, it is used as a tool against them to claim the breed is unhealthy.

Initially I was concerned, but since then I have done extensive research on MDR1-IVM (and maybe you should too!), it is not a disease, yet those that lack knowledge on it treat it as such & look down upon carriers. Some breeds, IVM is so ingrained into the genepool, no testing is done, it's just common knowledge within that breed to avoid certain medications. Whereas, the WSSD community made the choice to implement testing to control it to avoid breeding affected dogs.

Dxenion, it is ok that Rakim is a carrier (who is a perfectly healthy dog), as said above, as long as he is mated to a clear bitch he will NEVER ever produce an affected pup. And even an affected dog is a perfectly healthy animal that will lead a normal life, with no complications provided certain drugs are avoided.

Health, Temperament, Type, Conformation etc, should be priorities, if we threw out every dog that carried a defective gene, well, we'd probably all be owning CATS!

[EISHUND]

There are 2 clear dogs.

Wrong again! Are you for real???? Again, I reiterate, you do NOT own an ANKC White Swiss, so why on earth are you on DOL making false claims about the breed!??

eta: YES, I am annoyed!

Edited November 7, 2011 by EISHUND

[Bilbo Baggins]

Ooops I am sorry there are 3 clear males and 3 clear females currently in the breeding pool.

There could be more but not hip and elbow scored yet.

I am not denigrating the White Swiss Shepherds just pointing out the unfortunate situation of the imported dogs over the unrecognised clear local dogs.

No I do not currently own an ANKC WSS but that does not stop me being interested in the breed.

The aim of any breeding program is to test and hopefully weed out the carriers so all future generations are clear.

When the gene pool is so small and its infested with carriers then its going to take a considerable amount of time to achieve clear status.

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

[EISHUND]

Ooops I am sorry there are 3 clear males and 3 clear females currently in the breeding pool.

There could be more but not hip and elbow scored yet.

I am not denigrating the White Swiss Shepherds just pointing out the unfortunate situation of the imported dogs over the unrecognised clear local dogs.

No I do not currently own an ANKC WSS but that does not stop me being interested in the breed.

The aim of any breeding program is to test and hopefully weed out the carriers so all future generations are clear.

When the gene pool is so small and its infested with carriers then its going to take a considerable amount of time to achieve clear status.

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

: Oh....my....god. There you go again, quoting alleged numbers of clear & carrier dogs. And yet again, the figures you have given are WRONG. You clearly do not have the intimate knowledge of the breed you claim to have, so perhaps refrain from quoting breed statistics until you do your research!!! If you are so interested in the breed, then I encourage you to learn more, and If I can help, I'm more than happy to do so as it's obvious you need assistance.

And how many of the unrecognised local lines have been tested? A small handful yes? Therefore, how can one claim that the entire Australian genepool is clear when only minimal testing has been done. Wild, uneducated & unsupported claims such as that worry me! I can assure you, there is a lot more to be concerned about in the local lines than MDR1 in the imported lines!

MDR1 is NOT A DISEASE, what part of that are you not understanding. What do you mean 'given the change of import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to be an issue?' I highly doubt any type of restriction would be placed on the importation of a dog with a mutated gene that is not a health issue. Is that what you are implying?

The aim of any testing in a breeding program is for it to be used as a tool to ensure AFFECTED dogs are not produced. The aim of testing is so carriers CAN be used effectively without limiting the genepool. With a severe health issue, yes, breeders can use it to weed out carriers if they wish, but MDR1 can NOT be compared with diseases. It's a healthy dog, always will be!

[Bilbo Baggins]

Ooops I am sorry there are 3 clear males and 3 clear females currently in the breeding pool.

There could be more but not hip and elbow scored yet.

I am not denigrating the White Swiss Shepherds just pointing out the unfortunate situation of the imported dogs over the unrecognised clear local dogs.

No I do not currently own an ANKC WSS but that does not stop me being interested in the breed.

The aim of any breeding program is to test and hopefully weed out the carriers so all future generations are clear.

When the gene pool is so small and its infested with carriers then its going to take a considerable amount of time to achieve clear status.

Given the change of Import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to become a big challenge.

: Oh....my....god. There you go again, quoting alleged numbers of clear & carrier dogs. And yet again, the figures you have given are WRONG. You clearly do not have the intimate knowledge of the breed you claim to have, so perhaps refrain from quoting breed statistics until you do your research!!! If you are so interested in the breed, then I encourage you to learn more, and If I can help, I'm more than happy to do so as it's obvious you need assistance.

And how many of the unrecognised local lines have been tested? A small handful yes? Therefore, how can one claim that the entire Australian genepool is clear when only minimal testing has been done. Wild, uneducated & unsupported claims such as that worry me! I can assure you, there is a lot more to be concerned about in the local lines than MDR1 in the imported lines!

MDR1 is NOT A DISEASE, what part of that are you not understanding. What do you mean 'given the change of import rules bringing in clear dogs is also going to be an issue?' I highly doubt any type of restriction would be placed on the importation of a dog with a mutated gene that is not a health issue. Is that what you are implying?

The aim of any testing in a breeding program is for it to be used as a tool to ensure AFFECTED dogs are not produced. The aim of testing is so carriers CAN be used effectively without limiting the genepool. With a severe health issue, yes, breeders can use it to weed out carriers if they wish, but MDR1 can NOT be compared with diseases. It's a healthy dog, always will be!

No MDR1 is not a disease but an affected dog will die if given the wrong medication.

Given the amount of carriers in the breed the only way you could stop an affected dog being produced would be to paediatricly desex all carriers and sell as pets. Keeping clear for breeding. This would then prevent an affected being produced 2 generations done the track. Because you can not control second and third generations.

[Lowenhart]

Given the amount of carriers in the breed the only way you could stop an affected dog being produced would be to paediatricly desex all carriers and sell as pets. Keeping clear for breeding. This would then prevent an affected being produced 2 generations done the track. Because you can not control second and third generations.

Given the alleged amount of carrier in the breed, the worst course of action is to desex all carriers and sell them as pets. Yes you very quickly get rid of the gene, and most of the gene pool and end up with something far far worse.

How? Well you have another gene that is very rare in the genepool now, which almost never meets up to give you an affected dog. Cut the gene pool down by getting rid of known carriers for the first gene and suddenly the % of dogs with gene 2 in the breeding program goes up (1 out of every 500 becomes 1 out of every 10) and it has a higher chance of meeting up and getting an affected dog. Suddenly the gene pool is hit by problems associated with gene 2.

If the disease is "mild", manageable so that suffering is rare, then the best course of action is to use otherwise healthy, happy carriers in the breeding program and try to find the clear offspring (yes 2 carriers can have clear offspring).

[Fanuilos]

The whole idea of genetic testing is risk/harm minimisation.

Carriers shouldn't be excluded from breeding as long as the MOI is known for the specific disease/mutation/defect. With the WSS population, it is incredibly small so the chances of using a carrier in a mating is likely. Some of the carriers that have been used are exceptional examples of the breed and on a whole healthy with none of the hidden nasties breeders should be really worried about in their lines, which is why people have used them.

In any breed, as long as everyone is testing and avoiding creating affected animals, it is manageable. If breeders are aware of and utilise the tests available for their breed, understand the breeding implications of mate selection and have knowledge of the diseases/mutations/defects they are trying to control using carriers shouldn't be a problem.

With a small population avoiding the carrier animals may not be possible as you could be potentially wiping out quality lines in the process resulting in loss of genetic diversity and as Lowenhart has said - introducing something worst trying to avoid carriers.