raineth Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I was at club today with Delta my Great Dane. She is a harlequin (white background with black patches). I mentioned to the instructors that she seems to be targeted by other dog's anti-social behaviours more than my other dog, and more than my friend's labrador. They told me it was because the other dog's being anti-social toward her didn't recognise her as a dog because of her markings and her size. This really sruprised me as I generally think that a dog's primary sense is smell, and she would certainly smell like a dog. So what do you think? I always thought they targeted her more because she doesn't give off the confidence that my other dog and my friend's labrador does; so I'm very interested to hear other people's theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineX Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Agree with the instructors. I don't think Duke (my problem child)was ever taken out of the backyard until I got him at 17 months. Really well socialized with other irish terriers, and put him next to an irish setter and watch him relax! Small dogs, particularly the small white fluffys - at age 5, he still is really unsure as to what they are, and will still wind up in hysterical barking (at least its not screaming anymore!). It is still noticable that when we come across a body shape or colour/colour combination he hasn't met yet, he will freak out over it. (Should have seen him around his first pug - that pug milked it for all it was worth!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 the other dog's being anti-social toward her didn't recognise her as a dog because of her markings and her size. Hmmmm not sure about this one . If it was one or two dogs who are not used to seeing different dogs, then it may be true..... but if it has happened on several occasions- different dogs .. then I'd agree with you - it could well be her body language . Happy to be corrected , tho I know lambs get confused by our koolies with more white on ... but they are just tiny, and going on size and movement I'd imagine dogs assess all sorts of characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I really want to do my post-doc on how dogs identify and categorise the things they come across. It utterly fascinates me. I think while dogs have a fantastic sense of smell, they don't always pay much attention to it. It depends on what is the most salient cue at the time. I think that with other dogs this is usually body language, because it is the most immediate and useful cue for them to get through the next few moments safely. How old is your GD? Some really funny things go on at various times in a dog's life that haven't really been documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We were walking past a GD at obedience. It was being very well behaved. As soon as my dog saw it though, he got a bit upset. It was just standing there, not facing in our direction - it wasn't even looking at him (so can't blame eye contact)! Previously Max has been frightened by a horse - so I thought he might have thought it was another horse? He can be reactive to other dogs, but usually it takes at least eye contact before he 'reacts'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thanks for all the interesting responses everyone Agree with the instructors. I don't think Duke (my problem child)was ever taken out of the backyard until I got him at 17 months. Really well socialized with other irish terriers, and put him next to an irish setter and watch him relax! Small dogs, particularly the small white fluffys - at age 5, he still is really unsure as to what they are, and will still wind up in hysterical barking (at least its not screaming anymore!). It is still noticable that when we come across a body shape or colour/colour combination he hasn't met yet, he will freak out over it. (Should have seen him around his first pug - that pug milked it for all it was worth!) Wow that's really interesting. I had head abuot other dogs responding differently to pugs and the instructor said that this also happens with poodles, especially those in their show clip. the other dog's being anti-social toward her didn't recognise her as a dog because of her markings and her size. Hmmmm not sure about this one . If it was one or two dogs who are not used to seeing different dogs, then it may be true..... but if it has happened on several occasions- different dogs .. then I'd agree with you - it could well be her body language . Happy to be corrected , tho I know lambs get confused by our koolies with more white on ... but they are just tiny, and going on size and movement I'd imagine dogs assess all sorts of characteristics. haha that's so cute re your mostly white Koolies. yes its happened with different dogs and even if we're walking with other dogs they will usually pick her out. Ofcourse the more this happens the more stressy she gets. She doesn't bark or growl or anything like that, but you can see she is stressed/worried. The other reason I thought it was more about her body language than her appearance was because my other dog Digby used to also have this happen to him, but now that he is confident he is no longer targeted as much. I really want to do my post-doc on how dogs identify and categorise the things they come across. It utterly fascinates me. I think while dogs have a fantastic sense of smell, they don't always pay much attention to it. It depends on what is the most salient cue at the time. I think that with other dogs this is usually body language, because it is the most immediate and useful cue for them to get through the next few moments safely. How old is your GD? Some really funny things go on at various times in a dog's life that haven't really been documented. She is 2 1/2. I would love to see your pst-doc on that. I really hope you chose to do it! I find it fasinating as well. Most of the time dogs are so so specific. But then for example, I know that I can say the word "toy" and she knows that means anything she plays with, not just one specific toy. And I didn't have to train her to understand that. We were walking past a GD at obedience. It was being very well behaved. As soon as my dog saw it though, he got a bit upset. It was just standing there, not facing in our direction - it wasn't even looking at him (so can't blame eye contact)! Previously Max has been frightened by a horse - so I thought he might have thought it was another horse? He can be reactive to other dogs, but usually it takes at least eye contact before he 'reacts'. Yeah it has happened that sometimes a dog will come up with a friendly manner, but when they get close and they feel that size difference, they get scared. Maybe that's what happened with Max with both the horse and the GD? With Delta though I find that mostly they are just unfrinedly whether they're near or far :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 There is a GD and 2 newfs at a park that I go to semi-regularly. Most dogs bark at them and carry on - even the bigger ones like labs. I think it is because they're so big that other dogs are fearful, rather than being seen as "non-dogs". Very proud of my little boy who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) I think more likely is the fact that her size intimidates other dogs , even if they are medium/large size, in comparison with her they probably feel tiny Although my aussie shep would often try to herd white fluffies but no other type of dog, and I've noticed other herding breeds doing the same. Edited October 31, 2011 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perfect partners Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 There is a GD and 2 newfs at a park that I go to semi-regularly. Most dogs bark at them and carry on - even the bigger ones like labs. I think it is because they're so big that other dogs are fearful, rather than being seen as "non-dogs". Very proud of my little boy who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. When I've walked my black Newf past paddocks containing black Shetland ponies, the ponies have whinnied to her. This has happened on several occasions with two separate ponies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I think it's possibly just one of those things, that how often do the other dogs see GD's and with those markings? I know the first time my girl (koolie) saw a GD she was like "whoa!", and just wanted to have a good look at it. She's also been the same with chihuahuas, the really tiny ones. It's like she's not sure what it is. White fluffies do tend to get poked and herded too here! Maybe there's some confusion in the dog's head - smells like a dog, but is it a dog?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 we had the same problems with Oberon. It is believed that the dogs didn't see him as another dog. We've had supposedly fine dogs go out of their way to attack him. we've had working kelpies eye him off as though he is livestock, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) many dogs don't use their nose as much as they should, it's one of the senses that is deadened through lack of stimulation. I was teaching scent detection at dog club last week most of the adult dogs had so much trouble since they could not sniff out a treat to begin with - they either went for the treat hand or just sat down confused. It can be a combination of things. I find my DDB is targeted to, it seems to be his facial structure that just gets launched at. I can have dogs approach him from behind, or the side, he remains nonchalant and they still get very on edge when they look him in the face. I've noticed this in a few other novel breeds as well, most dogs that have not been exposed to so many other breeds get the wrong idea. Your dogs body language may not fit convention or could be misconstrued due to her size and movements and hence gets picked on. If other dogs are not used to a dog like your they can easily become confused and do what comes naturally. The other dogs will realise that she is a dog in one way or another, that connot really be missed, but are probably misunderstanding her body language over species. Edited November 1, 2011 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I was at club today with Delta my Great Dane. She is a harlequin (white background with black patches). I mentioned to the instructors that she seems to be targeted by other dog's anti-social behaviours more than my other dog, and more than my friend's labrador. They told me it was because the other dog's being anti-social toward her didn't recognise her as a dog because of her markings and her size. This really sruprised me as I generally think that a dog's primary sense is smell, and she would certainly smell like a dog. So what do you think? I always thought they targeted her more because she doesn't give off the confidence that my other dog and my friend's labrador does; so I'm very interested to hear other people's theories. My Dally is a HUGE target - coincidentally he's a big white dog with black spots ;) Yes, he's entire and has quite an upright stance but he does not try to make eye contact or growl or pick fights. Quite happy to ignore other dogs until he is set upon - and yes, it has happened in the middle of some beautiful focused heel work! Most males (entire or desexed) take an instant dislike to him but even "grumpy" females (as described by their owners) just adore him. I don't think it's that they don't recognise them as a dog. Perhaps the colouring doesn't help? I know in retrieving we always wear white so our dogs can see us from a few hundred metres away so I wonder if the colouring accentuates the size?? Zig developed an unholy fear of the harlequin Great Danes as a 9 month old in show training - probably a result of a fear period but it came out of absolutely nowhere. It wasn't the size as his best mate was a 96kg Mastiff who used to dump him on the ground good-naturedly when he'd had enough of his silly Spotty puppy antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 My white dog is a target too. Interesting. She's not big, nor intimidating. My other dog acts strangely around huge dogs, like newfies. He's large himself but he always has a quick bark at newfies until he has thoroughly sniffed them over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chequeredblackdog Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) My White BC cross always gets lambs following and trying to suckle off him in lambing season, though admittedly he DOES look like a sheep! I've found that my sisters Terrier cross doesn't recognise my other 3 dogs if she sees them through a door/window She goes absolutely BALLISTIC until we open the door and she smells them, then its like 'oh yeah, it's Sadie/Rocky/Reggie' and she does it almost daily! The first time my Kelpie pup saw pomeranians you could almost see his eyes bug out and his jaw drop, he nearly fell over! Even after close inspection I don't think he could believe they were really dogs! Edited November 1, 2011 by Chequeredblackdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It might be a case of mis-matching cues. As a rather extreme example, one evening I was staying with my parents and 2 of their dogs got out and were missing for many hours. They came back on their own at about 10pm, wearing the stench of a thousand rotting carcasses washed up on the side of the lake. They came in and were greeted by Kivi (who approved of the new scent) and the other dog, then flopped down on their bed, exhausted. At that point, Erik completely lost it. They looked like the dogs he knew, but they sure did not smell like the dogs he knew, and the dogs he knew did not waltz into the place at 10pm at night and make themselves at home. The combination of familiar and unfamiliar cues really spooked him and he would not even go near them, just stood back barking at them. It took putting the thundershirt on him, whereby his arousal dropped and the unfamiliar cues became less of a big deal and he accepted it was in fact the dogs he knew and not alien bodysnatchers (I'm looking at OH for showing him The Thing ;) ). Seriously, though, it can particularly be a herder thing to be sensitive to things out of place. As Temple Grandin has said, animals are experts in differences. They notice when not all the cues align just so, and it's a much bigger deal for them than it is for us. And within dogs, it's a much bigger deal for some dogs than others. On top of that, different cues can be stronger depending on how the dog is feeling or what kind of cues they are used to using and how many types of cues they are used to using. I suspect a lot of dogs don't pay much attention to scents because they live with people who put much more emphasis on visual and auditory cues, so they focus there as well. Mind you, I've had dogs never taught to use their nose figuring out where the milk comes from on my apparatus. A few have crawled underneath it looking for a payload they can presumably smell. I expect all dogs know how to use their nose, but sometimes they need to have other more common cues like pointing taken away or become meaningless for them to consider that smell might be the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) thanks so much for all the replies so thought provoking. I guess I'll never know exactly what's going on; but its good to have a variety of possibilities to consider As her training progresses (hopefully :p ) and she doesn't find the anti-social behaviour of other dogs as stressful, it will be interesting to see if this makes any difference. ETA: its especially interesting to hear that other dogs who are either big, or otherwise not the typical dog also get a bit of this reaction too. Like Nekhbet's DDB, and TSD's dally, and other white dogs. Edited November 1, 2011 by raineth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Hmmm my Britt is almost completely white and I have yet to have an antisocial experience with her.... Fingers crossed it does not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Kaos met a Shar pei the other day and had no idea what to make of it! After the initial sniff he wanted to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) yes us humans have created a bit of a problem in that way. So many novel breeds and sometimes its not easy to introduce your dog to so many different ones when they're younger. I find too some dogs are just targets for other dogs because of their behaviour, especially those that a lot of people consider 'happy go lucky'... if you look at some of these dog's they're actually quite obnoxious as they just la la la around the other dogs, bump them, get involved and don't back off when told off ... then usually just derp there or roll over and flail. If you find you have a targeted dog watch closely what it seems to be that sets off the other dogs. It could be a natural breed trait, movement or simply the facial expressions which some breeds cannot help (eg mastiffs, novelly coloured breeds etc) A dog will recognise the smell of a dog, the confusion will come from the fact that the look associated with the smell doesnt fit what dog considers a 'dog'. Thats usually where the flinching and backing off like Kaos does comes in. Edited November 1, 2011 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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