Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) Our new guys is so cute and adorable in so many ways but he is starting to display some unwanted behaviour He can't be left alone or he cries while jumping at and scratching the door. He wrecked a brand new soft crate last night by chewing a hole straight through the side of it. I understand it may take a few days for him to stop crying when put to bed but even when ignored, he just won't stop - he cried, scratched and barked until about 3am this morning... The neighbour on one side has dogs that bark and I have complained to him over the years and he believes it is his turn to complain. I just had to drop my son out somewhere, so put Gus in the laundry (with his water, bed, toys and a chew - I was gone for about 25 minutes), when I got home the neighbour caught me and said 'that is going to wear thin pretty quick'... I have put up with his dogs barking for years and it has only been 2 days with this boy. He is loud and it is through the night or whenever he is not near me (my son said he does it if I go to the shop or for a shower)... I have never dealt with a dog with these issues before and I am not sure how to deal with them - do I put him in the back yard, so he can spend time alone and away from me to get him used to it? when he is in the backyard urinates on the clothes on the clothes line - I could not believe it when I walked into the yard to see him cock his leg on a sheet (I can raise the clothes line but how would you fix this one?) He has started to hump visitors too which I find most inappropriate - I have only ever had male dogs and none of them have ever done this to people before. Yes we put him down and tell him a firm no but he gets straight back up and starts again.. How do you deal with this one? It starts with him jumping up on someone and when he is put down with a firm down, he jumps up again and again - it is almost like a game to him. But it escalates to him humping whoever he is jumping on. It has been a long time since I did any training with a dog - this boy is a kelpie and around 18 months to 2 years old. I have never tried to train an older dog and his attention span to do anything is all but nil (even with treats). I can't use the pats and good dog response as he seems to get overly excited when he you pat him and he starts jumping and then humping again... He won't come when called, he won't sit - even with a treat at his nose and pressure on his rear to encourage him to sit. I have to keep all my inside doors shut now as he won't poop outside (he pees outside) - he finds a room and poops there (yesterday it was the lounge room). Any help would be appreciated.. I really want to help this boy and don't want to let him down, like his previous owners but I am worried I am out of my depth here... Edited October 30, 2011 by Staffyluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilmisssascha83 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I"m no expert as I haven't had this issue before with my dogs in the past. But it sounds like he is suffering a bit from separation anxiety. Poor thing, he probably wasn't treated well in the past and now that he is with you who cares for him he might not know this is acceptable behaviour. It could be that he isn't confident yet which is why he is upset when you aren't in sight. Maybe try practicing sit stays very slowly ( but move away)and if he stays then rewards. I practiced this with my girl first in the house, I can now walk around the house and then come back to her and she is in the same position. Also maybe give him a job to do when you aren't there or some kind of distraction. If he is doing this when you just go to the shower I think he is unsure that you are coming back. I have a lab ( who is a rescue dog). I was worried she would become destructive when I was at work so everyday before work, we go for a walk where we incorporate training time, play time etc. I do this to tire her out. When we get back home and before I have to go to work, I scatter her breakfast around the garden so she has to (find it) and sometimes she might get a Kong toy as well. Plus her toys. This may help with the destructive behviour if you give her stuff to do when you aren't there. Its only been a few days so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Re: the humping behaviour. He may be doing it out of excitment or even anxiety. Or maybe he is bored or seeking your attention. Have you tried clapping your hands and yelling "NO". My dog use to do it but only to his blanket. It was soo not a pretty sight to see when we had company. He did try it on people once or twice but learnt quickly that it wasn't acceptable. I'm assuming he has had his vet check and that turned up ok? I wouldn't let him poop inside. He will get use to that and think it is normal. I remember when I first got Sasha she didn't go to the bathroom for 2 days. I was soo worried but the foster carer just told me to take her out lots as she could be shy. She now goes out on her own except at night after a little incident that scared her but we are working up the courage to get her to go again on her own. Just take him out alot as soon as he does go outside, reward him like anything. It could be that he is just getting use to you and doesn't quite know where to go outside yet. That's just from my experience though. Not sure about the clothes line thing though. Maybe just put it up higher for now. There are probably more people on here that have WAY more experience than I but maybe some of these ideas may help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...and his previous owners possibly could not cope with his behaviour ... OK. of course my first recommendation is to get in a professional ;) We can give you all sorts of advice... but having someone there- to see Gus doing what he does ,and walking with you is invaluable. What I will suggest is: N I LI F The dog gets no rewards unless his behaviour is what you want ... calm/obedient/controlled/clean. he will get hugs/pats/"goodboys"/loving looks.... and CALM quiet praise . BUT only when he deserves them..not just for being handsome ,or alongside you. It is up to him to decide how much affection/reward he gets in a day ;) So .. when he's sitting/lying quietly.. he gets attention. when he comes to his name when he's quiet on the other side of the door ...for 10 seconds, even. you haven't had him long at all - I am not surprised he chewed his way out of a crate !! I will also suggest a decent wire crate ..and proper training to get him used to being in one ;) So.. what did you do at 3 am? Did he stop of his own accord? If he did that's great ! ) And then he should have been rewarded, ideally ... (but I can understand if not ) :p I will also suggest ,when indoors, having him attached to you with a longish lead ..... so he can not get into mischief without you knowing . No need to talk to him, just have him be settled and controlled and with you ..just like a handbag ;) If you went to him...... then tonight, he will possibly bark until 4 am !!..cos he 'knows' you'll turn up eventually. Any of this that is hormone related will lessen a bit some time after he's castrated ... sounds ,though, as though he has not had any training. Please get someone in to help you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 NILIF is a great place to start. Also look up Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation, which is a structured way to teach dogs to be calm no matter what happens around them. It is particularly geared towards dogs with separation-related distress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilmisssascha83 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 That was my other thing I was going to suggest. The Nothing in life is free. Only reward when he is being good and make him earn it. I have been practicing this with Sasha the past few days more often with more and more things. Previously I would only do it for giving her food, going for a walk, she would have to sit and then she use to yank me out the door ( not anymore) she has to sit and wait until I open the door and then I go out first. I have been doing this for months though now. Now I make her sit or lay down before I throw a ball for her as I am trying to use the ball as a reward for her recall. And also so she knows that I wont't play or throw the ball until she does what I ask and does it well. The lay down thing was new for her but the last two days she has really gotten it. I can tell her down and she lays down and then she gets the ball as her reward so I think she's cottoned on to that fact. Also if she brings me a toy to initate play I ignore her. I have to be the one to initate the game not her and while it is cute I thinks she knows if she starts the game and I comply then she's the leader. So I have been changing a few things to make sure she knows I'm the leader and I set the rules. I think it is working but it's a process. I was wondering too if he has been desexed yet? It could be hormonal. If possible try to get a professional in too so they can see what he is doing. I suspect these unwanted behaviours is what got him in the pound to begin with as his previous owners could be bothered to address it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) Thanks for that - I really appreciate the assistance. I know it is early days but I thought I could at least get him to sit in a couple of days. We have had numerous sessions on lead and off, trying to just get him to come and sit - he won't do either. Gussy won't sit, not even with pressure on his behind and food at his nose. He simply won't sit - he fights it and then backs away, so after a few attempts I leave him and then come back to it again in a couple of hours. I have been trying constantly since he arrived here - even my son has tried. Lead on and off. He won't sit for food or anything - this is the most basic of commands. If I can't even get him to sit after a couple of days, how on earth will I teach him anything else. The same with telling him down - he jumps constantly. As a kelpie and a smarter breed, you would think that being told and put down everytime you jump it would catch on. I do think his previous owners have a case to answer for - the poor little guy is starving for affection. I will look up this NILIF and hopefully that will give me something to go on because I am at a loss as to how to get him to just sit. I honestly cannot afford a professional for training him - hence my request for DOL helpers:) I guess I was just really spoilt with Ollie the last 14+ years - he was easy to train and did what he was asked (up until he developed selective hearing in his old age). I remember a lot of the training stuff from Ollies time at training here in Queanbeyan. ETA: Pers he does stop of his own accord as I simply will not give in to him and let him in - but trying to survive on 3 or 4 hours sleep is horrible (I am on medication to help with sleep since Dan passed away 4 weeks ago, so sleep is hard enough to get as it is)... I would be to scared to put him in a wire crate, I would be afraid he would hurt himself trying to get out and chewing on it. But that is a good idea, once he is more settled and not so freaked out to be by himself (which did not seem to bother him in the pound as he was timid and shy, no barking or anything, just very quite - oh no he is not). just goes to show how much a pound can change an animal - Gussy is the exact opposite of what he was in the pound. Edited October 30, 2011 by Staffyluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Gussy is the exact opposite of what he was in the pound. *nods* very different environments ..and very different behaviour ;) Forget "sit" for now .... just concentrate on NOT rewarding him for anything but having 4 feet on teh ground ..or his bum. no pushing off when he jumps... turn away if you can .. and don't say anything . any words/touch can be rewarding ... I am glad he stops eventually. Make a cake for the grumpy neighbour, apologise, and say you are working on it.... a wire crate- where he could see you would probably be much more settling for him. He has possibly never been behind a solid door before:( probably a backyard boy ..with lots of 'love' ..and absolutely no boundaries/rules/consequences....and once mature, as he is .. too hard to handle. as well as NILIF, then..start him immediately on k9 pro's triangle of temptation.... LINK IMO, before you can start trying to teach sit etc , Gus and you need to have some sort of conversation regarding who does what in the household. simple things like TOT and NILIF are a good way to start that conversation ..with no side tracking or 'right/wrong' pressure X happens, then Y is the reward - very basic stuff for the dog . Remember the family has to do it- not just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) This may not be everyone's preferred option, but is it possible to let him sleep in your room, perhaps in a crate in the corner? Since it is such early days and he is clearly upset it might be better to slowly move him into the laundry rather than just enclose him in a strange place by himself all night? And if this does stop the whining and you are getting enough sleep I'm sure you'll be in a better frame of mind to deal with all the daytime problems Edit: yes kelpies are smart and quick learners, but that can work just as well for bad habits, and it sounds like you have 18 months worth of practicing bad habits to undo Edited October 30, 2011 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Poor Gussy sounds like he's all over the place, with all he's been through. Anxiety, confusion, being moved around plus whatever he went through with the previous owners. Good on you for taking him and working to give him a good home! With teaching him specific things like sitting and coming and not jumping, in order for him to register that you're asking him to do something and what that thing is his brain needs to be somewhat focussed at least- if he's worked up with anxiety/excitement/worry etc etc all the time he may not be able to register what you want from him just yet. Plus even if he does get it he still needs to find the reward you're offering more rewarding than whatever he's getting from the behavior itself. So for eg with the jumping up he may sort of think "if I jump up I at least get some attention when they tell me to get down. I don't know what will happen if I don't jump up at all but mostly bad things have happened to me before so I'm gonna stick with what I know I can get and not risk it".... Does that make sense?? I think you need to work on him feeling secure in the home and building a bond with you before you teach him specific things. Like Pers (I think) said, you could have him on a lead attached to a belt or another lead looped around your waist basically all the time when you're at home - just for a little while (couple of days??). Then sort of ignore him, go about your business as tho he wasn't there except for obviously taking him out to toilet regularly and quiet praise of he does sit or lie down quietly of his own accord. Then he can't get into too much trouble, he'll hopefully start to bond with you more and be around you enough not to feel like he always needs to be seeking your attention. It will also force him to focus on you if he's attached to your waist and has to follow you around, he'll have to watch what you're doing so he knows where to walk, when you're stopped etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 He can't stay in my room. He can get out of his crate and he is not house trained. If he was house trained I would say fine but a grawn dog toileting in the house is not on. He just spent 3 weeks in the pound behind a cage door. My laundry door is glass so he can see everyone buy once the house is dark he starts crying. The biggest issue is I have to go away for a week on Thursday and my son is going to look after him while I am away. He is now having reservations due to Gussy not behaving and crying whenever he can't see me. Which I totally understand but it does not help me or poor Gus. I hope he settles a bit before I have to leave next week. I will just keep perservering with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 He can't stay in my room. He can get out of his crate and he is not house trained. If he was house trained I would say fine but a grawn dog toileting in the house is not on. Fair enough, it was just a thought Similar to what others have said, and I think is particularly true with kelpies, is that they work a lot better once they've got some physical energy burnt off. And if this poor dude has been in the pound I think a few long runs would be my first activity before I tried any focus work I think you need to work on him feeling secure in the home and building a bond with you before you teach him specific things. I think this too. I was in tears at least once after I bought each of my rescue kelpies home just because they are so ....constant! but you've done a lovely thing taking this guy in, and I think you've got some great advice above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) I think a few long runs would be my first activity before I tried any focus work might be just me- but a dog who has no training ..and ,I presume, has not been walked by staffyluv yet .... well, I would be very wary of taking him out on the street Do you know, staffyluv, what he's like around strange dogs/traffic/loud noises/strange people approaching? While walking is a good idea, generally , with an unknown dog , it can be an 'interesting' experience . A dog who has no real bond with you may show all sorts of reactions...and if he does not recognise you as his leader/protector ... the walk may not be very pleasant . Does he walk ok on leash? That would be a nice thing to have, even if he doesn't sit! Edited October 30, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 might be just me- but a dog who has no training ..and ,I presume, has not been walked by staffyluv yet .... well, I would be very wary of taking him out on the street Ah yep, hadn't thought of that. But it could be worth the effort to find a time/place that is quiet enough for some on-lead running, since an 18 month old kelpie that is not getting exercise every day ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 an 18 month old kelpie that is not getting exercise every day ....... *nods* an 18 mth kelpie anyhow ! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 an 18 month old kelpie that is not getting exercise every day ....... *nods* an 18 mth kelpie anyhow ! :p Yeeessssss...... *looks at Weasel* ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Does he sit when he wants to on his own or just stands or lays down? He may have back or hip problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 He has energy to burn but as a foster who is not yet vaccinated (Monday), I am not allowed to walk him for 2 weeks. He won't be desexed until I come back from QLD after November 8th. We have been playing ball in the backyard of a day and with a rope toy of a night - he is actually really good at playing with these toys on his own, he throws the ball and bounces it and wrestles with the rope toy - but only when I am around. If I come inside, he dumps the toy and won't stay outside at all. I have been trying to stimulate his mind with training (going very poorly)... I realise he is a working breed and needs lots of exercise and he will get it as soon as his vaccs kick in. But for now, we have to be content with what we have. I have had him on lead here at the house quite a few times - he herds you, walks from one side to the other then around behind you - tis funny..but cute.. He is not a puller but I dare say I don't walk fast enough for him as he takes a few steps and then stops and waits for me to catch up to him. I also had him on lead when I took him to the vets on Saturday morning after the tick episode and he was fine with another dog growling at him (no reponse, he just stood beside me). I have had a variety of people come and go the last couple of days and once introduced he is fine with all of them and happy to meet people. He is not timid and shy - I would suggest more 'wary'. My son did notice that when you lift your foot up off the ground (he raised his knee to stop Gussy from jumping on him) - Gussy went straight down onto his belly... I fear he may have been kicked before at sometime in his passed.. The same happens if you raise your voice (I yelled out to Cory yesterday and Gussy went down on his belly and flattened his ears out) - so possibly been yelled at a lot too, poor baby. I think I might get a kong and freeze some treats into it for when I go out. This might keep him busy enough to not miss me so much but again, if he carries on, then I am just rewarding that behaviour aren't I?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 Does he sit when he wants to on his own or just stands or lays down? He may have back or hip problem. Yes he sits when HE wants to. If I ignore bad behaviour like the jumping - when he tires of it, he will sit and look at me (so after he has been sitting a few seconds, I say 'sit' and pat him - not much, just a nice soft pat on the head). The way he runs and jumps on really high furniture (the table for example), I don't think he has any back problems and he often lays like a staffy (frog style)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) I'd be getting him a decent sized wire crate and getting him used of it. I was actually going to suggest it in your other thread in rescue, especially with the other little one you have coming. I was never for crates prior to rescuing, now I swear by them. He probably hasn't had anyone be so nice to him before, maybe that's part of the reason he has the seperation anxiety? I'd be getting him used of a crate. He will probably carry on for a little while. Some take longers than others to adjust and get used of it. Same for training, some take longer than others to pick things up so I wouldn't panic if he isn't shaking in 2 days. Give him time and keep at it until he does get it. He's probably just so excited to be getting some long deserved attention atm that the training is going in one ear and out the other. The washing I would put up higher. Luki would pee on it here too if he had half the chance. so I usually hang it pretty high here. Keep up with the training, it's only early days yet. Persistance usually pays off. He'll probably need a good few days, maybe weeks to settle and get used of his new routine. Hopefully the desexing will eventually help with the humping issue. In the meantime I'd be gentle but firm with him and tell him "No, naughty boy - get down", whenever he does it. Maybe he will come to see it is not a game and not acceptable after all. If he persists, I'd ignore him until he does settle. Does he get much backyard time? maybe he needs to get out and let out some of that puppy energy? it'd also do him good to be with you but away from you if that makes sense?. Maybe even give him a good play in the yard before a training session. If he has let out some of that excitement & energy prior - he might focus more on what you are asking of him, instead of trying to turn it into a game or not focusing at all. I would also let him out for a run, and observe him from inside, somewhere where he cannot see you - to see what he does. Does he go to explore? does he eye the fences up? does he stick to the back door waiting to be let in again? Chances are, he's not be used of being left inside the house while his people are out. He's probably never been in a house fullstop prior to coming to be with you. This would all be so new to him and might be part of the reason he is barking and carrying on when you go out. My advice would be persistance & patience, oh and a good crate. If all that fails, then I'd seek professional help. Please also be careful when introducing your new addition. Although they may of got on at the pound, things might be different at home. Gussy might feel territorial of his new family and home. I also wouldn't leave them alone unsupervised until you're 100% confident that they'll get along. Again this will take time. Goodluck with him, I am sure things will work out fine. Gussy is very lucky you came along when you did. You're doing a wonderful thing for him. Edited October 30, 2011 by k9angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 We have been playing ball in the backyard of a day and with a rope toy of a night - he is actually really good at playing with these toys on his own, he throws the ball and bounces it and wrestles with the rope toy - but only when I am around. If he remains disinterested in working for food you can use a game of fetch or tug as a training reward too I realise he is a working breed and needs lots of exercise and he will get it as soon as his vaccs kick in. But for now, we have to be content with what we have. Ahhh yep, didn't think about vaccs I think I might get a kong and freeze some treats into it for when I go out. This might keep him busy enough to not miss me so much but again, if he carries on, then I am just rewarding that behaviour aren't I?? I give mine a frozen kong about 5 minutes before I go out, so they are all settled in chewing/licking and barely even notice when i leave (bad for my ego, but good for them ). That would circumvent the 'reward for being crazy' problem. If he hasn't had kongs much before then I would use a combination of frozen/not frozen or some peanut butter smeared around the top so he doesn't just give up like my girl did the first time I gave her a frozen kong Licking and sucking also releases calming hormones in dogs' brains, so is perfect for separation anxiety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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