Breeder Not Happy With My Questions

[BJean]

Is my experience that asking a breeder how many they have is like asking for them to run a mile.

But buyers should ask about the breeders dogs - they matter too. No way I'm going to hand my money over to someone who I don't believe is ethical.

Yep, can't have it both ways. IF breeders can be choosy about their puppy buyers and make judgements on their suitability, then it has to be in reverse too.

If I don't want to buy from a breeder with over X amount of dogs, that should be my choice as someone about to part with all that money.

Of course it should go in reverse. But this type of question is typical PC question and the person asking generally doesn't really know what they are on about (in this context).

Okay so you ask me as a breeder how many dogs I have, and I tell you 20.

What does that tell you?

All you can apply is a perceived idea about how many dogs an 'ethical' (sic) breeder has.

It doesn't tell you about my dogs, how I breed, what type of breeder I am.

You don't know the circumstance, all you have is an ideal in your head about what good breeders do. But the ideal is a long way from actuality. And so it does not serve as a good reference point.

Well if 20 was over what I wanted, then it tells me you aren't the right breeder for me and I'd move on to find someone suitable? If it was a point that mattered to me.

If I wanted a breeder who only bred every few years, my choice...a breeder who breeds three times a year...my choice.

To reverse it again, some breeders won't sell to someone who works full time *regardless* of the ins/outs and technicalities of their personal life. They have a right to not sell to that person, and the prospective buyer has a right to filter you out based on whatever they want to. It doesn't matter at all what the right number is, if there is a right number and so on.

It's not some magical past time that no one on the outside can understand. If an Owner wants to buy a puppy whose parents are predominately indoor dogs, that is their choice, and they have the right to know if this is the case, or if the breeder keeps 20 in kennels.

Of course if you want to make choice based on things that have no relevance you are free to do so.

A puppy buyer choosing breeders based on arbitrary numbers, is as intelligent as a breeder selecting homes where the owner works 15 hours per week.

It's not some magical past time that no one on the outside can understand.

Actually if you ask me how many dogs I own and apply a ethical or not judgement to that number, you do not understand what I am doing. Because quite simply, if you understood what i was doing, and what was required to do what I am doing, you would not need to ask me about numbers of dogs. It is as simple as that.

Edited October 28, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

Okay so you ask me as a breeder how many dogs I have, and I tell you 20. What does that tell you?

How about if the person asking is looking at the answer in context with the other questions asked?

Potentially 20 dogs, not a member of any clubs and don't show could be enough of a reason to decide against buying from that person.

Some breeds dont have breed clubs or any clubs other than the ANKC or MDBA.

Some breeds showing doesn't mean much also.

What is wrong with 20 dogs lol .. you see how my perspective is different because I am actively involved in breeding for a breed?

Okay so take me with my Anatolian/Kangals. I have dogs here, dogs overseas and dogs in transit. If I tell you I have 20 breeding dogs and you make a judgement on that and call me unethical. That is naive and ignorant. because it tells me you have no concept of the situation in Australia & Turkiye, the gene pool, what is required to bring in new dogs and how long the process takes. But the point is, of course you are not supposed to know these things!! So why make judgements about them? To me it is nonsensical. Just as it does not make sense for me to select homes based on an arbitrary number of how many hours they work each week. Hours worked per week tells me nothing about an owner's actuality of being a good dog owner.

Edited October 28, 2011 by lilli

[JLPandFriends]

Just as it does not make sense for me to select homes based on an arbitrary number of how many hours they work each week. Hours worked per week tells me nothing about an owner's actuality of being a good dog owner.

That is a good point. Maybe they take their dogs to work, or maybe they come home for lunch, or maybe they own their own business and so can come and go as they please or maybe there are others at home while they are at work. Not all breeders who have many dogs are puppy mill breeders just as not all breeders who only have a couple of dogs are genuine registered breeders who breed for the betterment of the breed. I'm sure there are many registered breeders out there with only a few dogs that breed for profit but don't feel they can handle more than a few dogs. Of course it is everyone's choice what they choose to do or choose not to do but at the same time things should be taken into perspective, questions asked and research done before passing judgement. Imo anyway.

[Esky the husky]

But are you asking if they have 20 breeding dogs or just how many dogs in general.

20 dogs may not be a lot of dogs if they are made up of mixed breeds, working breeds, retired dogs. 20 dogs is just a number.

People with working dogs (i have found) tend to have quite a few dogs at one time. And they don't always consist of working dogs. There tends to be one or two family dogs as well as the old retired farm dogs and the young dogs who are learning the ropes.

Exactly, in my breed people often have large numbers of dogs.

They are bred to run as a team, and so the breeders I would dream of a puppy from, have a fair few dogs that run in harness. Pups in training and older dogs who aren't competing any more.

There are some people who can easily handle 20 dogs and some who struggle with one, I don't think we should judge them because of this.

[Rysup]

@rysup

those doggies in ur signature, what breed are they, they are gorgeous!

off topic i know lol couldnt resist

Keeshonds And thank you, I agree :D

[toy*dog]

you can't make assumptions on people's lives just from the outside, you have to really get to know a breeder get to know a pet owner it goes both ways.

i dont' think the number of dogs has anything to do with what the breeders goals are. i know alot of breeders who are not puppy farmers who have alot of dogs but all of those dogs are well cared for and these breeders do not breed for profit, they are show breeders breeding because of the love of the breed. one breeder just loves animals and will take on rescues as well as having her show dogs in the mix as well as elderly dogs.

[Rysup]

When people ask how many dogs we have, the initial answer may shock. But what they fail to ask is what that number involves. I have dogs ranging in age from almost 16 years to 12 weeks. They certainly are not all breeding animals, and I would rather people asked me how often I breed (which averages out about once ever 5 years!)

[Talien]

My initial email was this:

After many years of working together to build a life together my partner Matt and I have decided that we would very much love to add a member of the four legged kind!

I don't know how to express to you just how long I have wanted a dog for. When I lived with my mum in * we had a retriever called Apollo (nicknamed hefalump). He was the most amazing four-legged friend, unfortunately he died at the age of 12 from lymphosarcoma (I think that's how it is spelled?). Apollo was an amazing dog in every aspect and growing up with him enriched my life. Retrievers have a gentleness and friendliness that is so warm and welcoming.

I am also at a loss to express how good a "pet owner" (I prefer the term companion) I would be. I would very much like to call you to talk to you about the prospect of being considered as a potential forever home for one of your beautiful animals.

(oh wow I'm so excited :D )

Please don't take these as anything bad, I have wanted a retriever for about 7 years now but my partner and I were simply not in a position to be able to give the love and care to an animal so we refrained from getting one, as such I would like to extend further information about my partner and I.

My partner has had a stable job now as an Audi technician for 8 months and we are more than financially stable to handle the costs of looking after another member of the family (training, vet checks, etc).

If you were to sell me one of your pups I would be a responsible companion and go to training with the Ballaarat Dog Obedience club.

We travel regularly but believe that dogs should be part of the family, so when we go to my mother's we would take the pup with us (she has two cocker spaniels, Magyk and Merlin) and my older sister Tamara's (she has a pug called Monkey, and a cocker spaniel called Toby).

I was hoping for a boy, and if possible a general cost? I don't want to show, just to play and love

I will try to call you tomorrow if I can and chat. Sorry I emailed you so early in the morning!

Since that initial email the breeder and I have shared over 70 emails.

Within those 70 emails are the same questions you ask, but they are over time, and I have built a rapport with my breeder. Generally speaking, straight off the bat asking all those questions at once seems an invasion and is offputting, but over time, its ok

[Angeluca]

if the breeder has a website, you might find the answers to a lot of those questions there. And the rest could be answered in general conversation. I had a half hour chat with a breeder on the phone one night last week and he answered a lot of those questions without me even asking them. While I think it's a bit full on, I've seen similar from breeders to potential puppy buyers though, and from rescue groups to potential adopters. So it works both ways....while the breeders and the rescue groups want to ensure they're selling to the right people, buyers have a right to ensure they are buying from a reputable source.

Agreed

[Merci]

TBH I didnt see anything wrong with the questions you asked and I would probably ask similar questions (though maybe not in that fashion as some people have indicated). it kinda makes me feel like there is something to hide. I dont see anything wrong with trying to make sure the puppy is the right puppy for you and I would hope that the breeder would want to find the best home for their puppy.

I am a little confused as to why it would be bad form to ask if the parents or puppy had been shown or whatever if you were interested in getting a show dog. Yes it might have seemed full on in the way it was set out and questions asked and might have helped with finness/research but I would have thought they would haev been thrilled that someone would have put so mch effort and thought into their potential puppy!

I certainly wouldnt want to get attached to the puppy then realise it didnt tick the boxes in some significant way!

P/N: this is a lay person's pov ;)

Edited October 28, 2011 by Merci

[Sandra777]

I am a little confused as to why it would be bad form to ask if the parents or puppy had been shown or whatever if you were interested in getting a show dog.

If you want to get involved in showing you would need to do research into breeders before you even start approaching them, so that's completely different to looking for a pet - some people breed great show dogs which make great pets, some people breed not so great show dogs which make great pets and some people can't manage either Buying a pet puppy and buying a prospective show puppy are not the same thing - every show dog should be a pet, but not every pet should be a show dog.

Also showing in itself is irrelevant to the quality of that specific puppy - some people will breed great show dogs from unshown parents on a regular basis while some of the top show dogs in the world are terrible producers.

No there is no harm in asking (there's no such thing as a dumb question!) but asking if the parents have been shown is irrelevant unless you also ask how successful they were, if they weren't shown then why not etc. In toy breeds it used to be normal to breed from bitches which would never be shown as they were too big for the ring. I don't know if this is so true anymore?

Actually if you want a show puppy a more sensible question would be how successful have previous pups from this dog and bitch been (not necessarily to each other)

Edited October 28, 2011 by Sandra777

[Roova]

Actually if you want a show puppy a more sensible question would be how successful have previous pups from this dog and bitch been (not necessarily to each other)

Thats where this becomes confusing because that exact question was in my original list! Seems what one question someone finds acceptable another person won't. One thing I've learnt is even if the breeder says 'send me your list of questions' as this one did, I should probably say I'd prefer to talk to you about them when you have time!

[persephone]

One thing I've learnt is even if the breeder says 'send me your list of questions' as this one did, I should probably say I'd prefer to talk to you about them when you have time!

• 

[JLPandFriends]

Actually if you want a show puppy a more sensible question would be how successful have previous pups from this dog and bitch been (not necessarily to each other)

Thats where this becomes confusing because that exact question was in my original list! Seems what one question someone finds acceptable another person won't. One thing I've learnt is even if the breeder says 'send me your list of questions' as this one did, I should probably say I'd prefer to talk to you about them when you have time!

I don't think anyone would have expected to be hit with a million and one questions though. I'm sure if she knew how many there were, she probably would have said no. =P

Also things can be taken out of context when communicating through text. You don't get any of the physical or vocal queues which can and do totally change the way people perceive things that are said. You could type something out and people will take it 1 way, then say it to them in person and they'll get a totally different understanding of what you're trying to communicate. But i think its important to remember that although some of the questions seem to exist to weed out the puppy farmers, that a lot of the breeders you contact will be genuine breeders who are proud of their accomplishments and so its normal for them to feel insulted by a question that indirectly insinuates the possibility they are something which they themselves despise as much if not more than you do. It's all about how things are worded.

Edited October 28, 2011 by JLPandFriends

[becks]

Actually if you want a show puppy a more sensible question would be how successful have previous pups from this dog and bitch been (not necessarily to each other)

Thats where this becomes confusing because that exact question was in my original list! Seems what one question someone finds acceptable another person won't. One thing I've learnt is even if the breeder says 'send me your list of questions' as this one did, I should probably say I'd prefer to talk to you about them when you have time!

Do you want a puppy to show though?

If you aren't showing, then the health and temperament are what you should be asking about, you can make your own mind up if you find that breeders dogs attractive or not.

If you are after a show puppy, you will have already done research on what dogs are doing well, been to shows to see the breed in action, learned about the breed standard and past and current 'greats' in the breed. You would have seen which stud dogs are producing the type of dog you like (I got one of my show dogs by contacting the stud owner to see what bitches her dog had been used on recently as I liked what he was producing to different bitches). If the breeder has a website, I would be looking up the relatives of her dogs and seeing what health checks I can find online about these dogs.

[Sandra777]

Actually if you want a show puppy a more sensible question would be how successful have previous pups from this dog and bitch been (not necessarily to each other)

Thats where this becomes confusing because that exact question was in my original list! Seems what one question someone finds acceptable another person won't. One thing I've learnt is even if the breeder says 'send me your list of questions' as this one did, I should probably say I'd prefer to talk to you about them when you have time!

But if you don't want a show potential puppy how is the question relevant? My answer was to Merci who asked about enquiring about a puppy for show.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Sandra777

[just1more]

Hi

I haven't read all 7 pages that are up here yet and I'm not a breeder but many of the questions you asked were ones that I too ask many breeders and ....well, most answered the relevant ones but some where, well, quite rude, especially when asking about previous litters I felt if I didn't ask that would make it look like I knew nothing which I thought would be even worse??!!

If I was a breeder I would want potential puppy buyer to ask as many questions as possible. If they feel that the potential new owner isn't heading in the right direction then they can either help them and make them a better owner or, try and help and if they refuse to "be taught" then that would be the big flashing red light that maybe this isn't the right person for their furbabies I'd also be more worried if I wasn't getting enough questions from potential puppy buyers.

Yeah, your first email might have been a little full on in one hit (maybe ask a few important one in the first email, wait for response and then send the next lot off etc...) I feel like I had a million emails (and phone calls)between my girls' breeder and myself over the space of a month I am now facebook friends with both my furkids breeders so they get to watch them grow up I know it's hard, you are just trying to make sure you are getting the new family member you want, and feel like your representing yourself to the breeder as someone that they want to sell a pup to, but just keep going and if it's meant to be then it will happen

[dancinbcs]

The original post was far too many questions to expect anyone to reply to by email. A long time breeder would need to write a novel to answer all that. When talking to breeders they will tell you most of those points while just discussing their dogs.

My suggested shortened list of questions is:

Breeder questions:

How many litters do you breed per year on average?

How many years have you had * breed for?

Do you successfully show or compete in dog sports?

What clubs are you a member of?

Parents of the pup questions:

What health results do the parents have for inherited conditions in the breed?

When asking this question you should already know what tests are required in the breed.

Puppy questions:

How are the puppies raised (outside, inside, combination?)

What health checks do the puppies have before leaving?

Only relevant for breeds that require specific health testing as babies, like luxating patella in toys and spinal x-rays in Bulldogs. Most breeds just have a basic vet examination at the first vaccination.

Is there any type of health guarantee or recourse if future genetic problems are found?

How much is a puppy?

Are the puppies on ANKC limited or main registration?

Is there a deposit required? How much? At what age? Under what circumstances is the money refunded if the sale doesn’t go ahead?

[AlanMatic]

Aren't breeders being a bit precious if they choose not to advertise the cost of pups, and then turn people away for asking? In the real world, many of us have a budget...

[Allerzeit]

By and large, I don't think it's an issue with not wanting people to ask - it's how they ask.

Most breeders get lots of emails that basically consist of:

"How much and what do you have available"

No hello, how are you, no name, no sign off - just a single sentence.

Asking how much in that manner is just plain rude, and that's what gets up most breeders noses.

I have zero problem with people asking price in their first email, provided the email is polite. I would also hope that people would not only ask for the price, but also introduce themselves a bit. Regardless of if people ask price or not, I always give the price as a part of my standard first response.

But if you send me a rude email demanding price and availability without a hello, please, thankyou, or kiss my bum, then you will just be told that there is nothing available.