atua Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hi, I have a 11 month old Gordon bitch. She is still entire (currently showing her) and she is as headstrong as they come. I have a few problems this dog is nuts and I mean nuts! I have been having problems for a while so think I may need to get a Behaviour Therapist to come and help her and myself out. Or some more ideas on what I can do to make living with this dog pleasurable instead of horrible. I consider myself a fairly experienced dog owner having had numerous dogs before and done obedience with all my dogs and been able to manage and correct behaviour issues without consulting a therapist before. However I am almost ready to admit defeat with this girl. I just dont know what else I can do. First of all I cant stop her from a destruction path- no matter what I try. I have tried toys, food in bottles, bones and lots of exercise but none seem to stop her from wrecking whatever she sees fit. She wrecks things from outdoor chairs, potplants, rips the washing off the line even will jump up to pull the string off the line if there are no clothes on it. She chews the tick collars off the other dogs, electrical cables you name it she will try it. She even pulls the plants out of the ground or jump up into trees to get the leaf at the very top. She is a very high energy dog that never seems to slow down. She has a free range run in a 2 acre paddock morning and night for atleast 1hour and a half per day but also swims for atleast 30 mins each morning on top of this and sometimes in the afternoon if its not dark by the time I get up to the house to let her swim in the pool. I have tried crating her when she is naughty, ignoring her, mental stimulation but then she will only hold concentration for approx 10 minutes. I have tried kongs to no interest as well as other toys and the only time she is slightly interested is when the other dog is playing and she bites her on the back of the neck and ears and barks at her. If the other dog drops the toy she doesnt care about the toy. Secondly the other day my partners 11yo son was walking to the shed (he didnt call the dog or anything, he was just walking to the shed to get the jerry can) and this dog ran up and bit him on the back of the heel and drew blood. She is very dominate with the other 2 dogs. She usually just soft mouths like most gundogs do but never before drew blood. What worries me is I am 34 weeks pregnant and really cant have this happen again to either the 11 year old or a newborn. At the moment I have kicked her out of the house yard where she had recently been on a path of destruction and put her in a dog pen. (its actually a horse stable thats inside a barn with a run onto the grass) So overall approx 3x 2.5m enclosed and another 3x 2.5m long a run to keep her confined while not supervised and currently let out morning and afternoon for free range exercise and a swim. I feel really bad about doing this as she is no longer in the house yard or has another dog as company and the stables are about 50 metres away from the house but I just cant trust her in the house yard anymore she has made it a mess. Any ideas or suggestions or even a reccomendation for a reliable behavior therapist in South Brisbane would be awsome. I guess I am having a bit of a vent at the same time as I dont know what to do. PS I havent proof read what I have written so sorry in advance if it doesnt make any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 She's a Gundog that needs a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hi - what does she 'do' what training does she get each day? what work does she get? how does she use her brain each day? What new things does she get the opportunity to learn each day? What will happen to her when you're busy/tired with a new bub? I agree you need professional help - the only person I can remember is Jane Harper ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 She's a Gundog that needs a job Took the words right out of my mouth. My working ESS has just turned one and goes retrieving/obedience/foundation agility training at least once every single day. More commonly twice. Plus an hour controlled walking with the Dally and a couple of water retrieves. She works for every scrap of food and loves it. If I'm home she is asleep on my feet or playing quietly with Dally/cats/toys/deer antler. If I'm out she is asleep in her crate. I know someone who has a relative of my puppy - at 7 months the dog is only doing basic obedience and is quite the little terror! They are super smart and need all that energy channelled into something constructive - free running and swimming just doesn't cut it unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atua Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hi - what does she 'do' what training does she get each day? We do basic obedience work. heal,sit,drop,wait,left turns etc. what work does she get? Have tried to get her to retrieve whilst in the pool and on the ground but she isnt interested in it. Other than that no other work other than physical exericse how does she use her brain each day? Obedience work as mentioned above and bottles filled with biscuits to chew. We also hide her food for her to sniff out and eat and even then its scattered in various places. What new things does she get the opportunity to learn each day? We try to work longer each day on obedience work and learn tricks like high five which we can seem to master as she gets bored sitting still. I am still trying to teach her to retrieve in the water but she isnt interested in fetching any toy. What will happen to her when you're busy/tired with a new bub? Nothing during her day will change apart from new techinques that might help her will be added. I agree you need professional help - the only person I can remember is Jane Harper ? I will look into Jane Harper. Has anyone here used her and how did they find it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Several folks have mentioned her ,,I'll do a search ;) HEREis just the search results - she's mentioned a lot! Hope you can get some help Solitary confinement is not the healthiest ... . Edited October 25, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Your dog is not 'nuts', she's a young Gordon that needs more mental stimulation and more one on one work. Ostracising her by placing her away from the family and the other dogs is only going to make her worse. How often does she leave your property? Does she get taken for walks, go to an obedience club? Have you tried doing any dog sports with her? Simply putting her out in a paddock to run a couple of times a day isn't enough, she's a working breed and needs training and a job to do. Gordons aren't a breed for everyone, they can be incredibly energetic and headstrong when young and need lots of work, I would start her on TOT and the NILIF program for a start, but what she really needs in one on one attention and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have referred several clients to Jane and the feedback I have received is all positive. She is expensive but will take numerous phone calls for reassurance after the initial consult and creates booklets of information on what she wants you to do and how to go about it (ie steps) so that you know what your goals are and don't have to try to remember it all from one verbal consult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Gordons are on my "most desirable because of looks" list ;) I have only ever worked with /trained one ...and he was wonderful , except for acute 'kennelanxiety' - he was only ever settled when with humans .. we could not keep him in a kennel environment , away from company . ........... he was so beautiful I hope this girl gets whatever she needs to be happy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 She gets free running exercise and swimming but how much interaction with you does she get, how much one on one training and play? Gundogs generally have an inbuilt desire to please you and do things for you, is she getting the opportunity to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 There's a lady at my obedience club with 3 Gordons and they are just the most gorgeous dogs. Hers are beautifully behaved but they are her whole world and she spends all her time outside of work doing things with them, training them, enjoying them etc. And I have a feeling that's the key.......all that attention, all the brain power she expects them to use, all the focus on her gives her three lovely mannered dogs. Even her youngest one, the last time I saw him he was around 12 months old and he was an absolute joy. Bouncy and active, but he was a good boy when she asked him to be, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 My young, active dog is very destructive, she is finally settling down and she is about to turn 2. I put up with it because it serves me right if I'm going to leave a young working breed in the yard while I am at work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Gordons are one of those breed that people say are "stupid" - they're not - they just need lots (& LOTS & LOTS & LOTS) of stimulation. Did the breeder from whom you got your dog tell you this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 she sounds bored and lonely My young, active dog is very destructive, she is finally settling down and she is about to turn 2. I put up with it because it serves me right if I'm going to leave a young working breed in the yard while I am at work yep that's about it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atua Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Thank you for the replies. This dog comes from a very reputable and knowledgeable breeder who is very supportive and informative hence why I chose this breeder in the first place. I spent alot of years researching the Gordons and asking questions to owners, breeders and browsing websites before choosing to get a gordon. Envy gets a fair amount of one on one time with me. I even take her to work once a week with me. She has no separation issues what so ever nor a anxious dog. She isnt consistanlty destructive there is no set pattern and its usually after a very full on day with her where we spend alot of time together. Its never done out of jealousy towards the other dogs or anything like that. She is very well socialised with dogs and people and has been to obedience classes before but they werent ideal for us because they were too lengthy and boring for her. Gordons thrive on short fun training rather than extented repetitive exercises. They are definately not a stupid dog infact quite the opposite and pick things up quickly hence why short and fun lessons work best. This is where I was going wrong I think- not enough and not varying enough. I have been in touch with the breeder and she is more than aware of what is going on and suggested a few things to try. We have come to the conclusion that she has been given too much free reign and now thinks that she rules the roost so more mental stimulation and less free range physical exercise will help the situation and I am more than happy to work more with her. I love her so much she is my pride and joy and she knows she has me wrapped around her paw. There is no denying she is stubborn and hard headed. I posted here because I am open to new suggestions and ideas to try with her. This needs to be stopped now rather than esculating so she does become unbearable to live with. I am not ready to give in just needed help and advice from other owners who have been through similar or have ideas. Having a baby will no way affect the life that this dog lives I just want to make the whole situation better so it works out for everyone - Envy included. She is a part of our family and I want to make sure she is a civil canine. . Does anyone know any good websites for mental stimulation and brain teasers for dogs that they have found successful? Links would be appreciated. Thanks for the link to Jane Harper I will check it out tomorrow when I am back at work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) There is a book by Mary Ray and Justine someone. It is a book of tricks (and obedience stuff) that you can teach and how to use the clicker. I find things like that really mentally stimulate them and get them quite tired because they have to think so hard. It is also easy to do at nights in the house or if your bub is having a sleep. I also found it relaxing down time and still do. Can get the exact name if you would like, wasn't very expensive either Edited October 25, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Have you tried free shaping with a clicker? Google Shirley Chong for 101 ideas with a box. Could you start foundation agility or similar (obviously limited jumps and weaving, but you could do hind leg awareness, circle work, focus building, building a reward system). Does she work for tug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atua Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 There is a book by Mary Ray and Justine someone. It is a book of tricks (and obedience stuff) that you can teach and how to use the clicker. I find things like that really mentally stimulate them and get them quite tired because they have to think so hard. It is also easy to do at nights in the house or if your bub is having a sleep. I also found it relaxing down time and still do. Can get the exact name if you would like, wasn't very expensive either If you dont mind that would be great. Thank you. Envy plays tug o war, infact shes quite good at tug o war. We tried using a clicker but she lost interest in the clicker (probably doesnt help that I am a complete novice with a clicker either) but responds well to food rewards. She is highly motivated with food. Tonight we did some exercises together before I put her to bed. We did some heal work, sits, drops and wait as well as through in a recall. The breeder recommended cutting out her afternoon free range activity for 10-15 minutes of rapid obedience work so that way she is working both mentally and physically at the same time rather then being able to do whatever she wants and then give her a further reward of a brief swim. I understand completely where she is coming from and do agree that I have let her have too much free reign and not enough mental stimulation. I dont expect miricles over night but do hope to see improvement within the next few weeks. I do believe she is capable and that we can change this destructful and nuisance behaviour for the better and I am happy to work with her. I have thought about doing agility with her but think I will leave that for a bit later down the track due to running isnt really my strong point at the moment lol however I could do some stuff with her at home like weaving and stepping through things. I will google Shirly Cross for ideas thank you very much. My plans for Envy are quite wide stretched and I hope to get her an obedience title as well as a few others. I have also looked into field work with her but with a new bub on the way some things need to be put on hold. She is a young dog with alot of potential and I need to put more time into her to get it out of her. The things I had been trying werent working and I was starting to get desparate for advice. We have also just recently moved houses so this could have upset her system also but the move was for the best as we didnt have much yard prior and now we have 10 acres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 We tried using a clicker but she lost interest in the clicker (probably doesnt help that I am a complete novice with a clicker either) but responds well to food rewards. She is highly motivated with food. This part stuck out to me. She is highly motivated by food, so losing interest in the clicker sounds like you are probably not doing it right Perhaps we can help you work this clicker business out and then the possibilities for training and mental stimulation are endless A click will ALWAYS = reward. You must always pay out after clicking! Any dog motivated by food should do backflips when you get the clicker out. Chance to earn yummy treats if that is your reward of choice! What are you doing with the clicker that is making her lose interest? Are you clicking and then not always paying out? I've read before about people clicker training and wanting to phase the treats out... but they keep on clicking and don't pay out with every click. This is not how it works! If you want to phase treats out, you use a clicker to teach a new behaviour with a payout for EVERY CLICK, but once the dog knows something you can ditch the clicker if you want. Then you can reward intermittently to phase it out (but I personally believe a reward should never be totally phased out, stop rewarding completely and the behaviour will extinguish). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Agreed RS - click ALWAYS means treat even if you accidentally click. If she is food motivated she should train with the clicker easily. All the click is is a marker of what you want and it gives you a short amount of time to deliver the treat. So it is also a bridge. When you are first doing the clicker the gap between click and treat needs to be very brief so they learn click means treat. Once that is very well understood, you can stretch it a little. As in she does something you want that is away from you and you click, then she can run back to you for a treat. The book I mentioned is Dog Tricks by Mary Ray and Justine Harding and is published by Hamlyn. It is a great book and gives you heaps of things to do, how to use the clicker to do it and what to do if it isn't quite going to plan. She will really enjoy shaping from the sounds of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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