Aggressive Dog

[ChristineX]

Hi Teela,

Nope, not getting you confused with the other person!

I second getting in touch with Mark , even in WA I have heard of him. He is good.

In the meantime, what you can try - speak to your dog club instructor and ask if they can announce a request for others to give your dog a bit more space. Try to establish what triggers your dog has, and keep distance from that trigger (one dog I know just cant tolerate shaggy brown dogs). See if there is a distance that your dog is happy at, and work there. Don't let your dog stare at another dog, or another dog stare at yours - break the stare line, either by stepping in front of your dogs face (called body blocking), or asking for attention/action. Work at getting really good focus, and rock solid sit or drop as if your dog is obeying a command, they can't lunge for another. Don;t just ever stand there listening, your attention needs to be on your dog at all times. Keep your leash short so that your dog doesn't have a lot of room for lunging - maybe look at a front ring harness that will spin the dog to face you if they lunge (I use one of these on my reative irish terrier).

One of the reasons for getting to someone like Mark - they pick up very fast on subtle signals that your dog is about to lunge - at the last reactive rover class one of the ladies was told to watch out for a left ear twitch! And they are very very good at working out a solution for you and your dog.

And let us know how you go!

Christine.

Let us know how you go!

[dee lee]

Just for the record as the OP I don't let my dog off the lead in public and due to her behavior I never will. Just making sure no-one gets confused with me and this Deejay.

Thankyou

Sorry for highjacking your thread, Teela. Offlead aggressive dogs just are a sore point with me.

I didnt confuse you with Deejay, & I doubt the other posters did either.

From your post it sounds like you are being responsible with your dog. It is extremely tough to own an agressive dog- my sympathies to you.

I hope your dog improves with help.

Edited October 26, 2011 by dee lee

[flame ryder]

Oh that's good...don't want people thinking I'm an irresponsible dog owner.

Christine yes she does the death stare thing, I try and get her to concentrate on me with food and silly voices. Sometimes it works, sometimes she just wont listen. I do keep my distance and warn others...and yes I keep a tight/short lead but got told off for that by the instructor...oh well. Some instructors are better than others, at our club the instructors change classes every month, so we get different opinions and different instructors have different training methods.

The good thing is she has improved and I've been told she will always have this problem and never be 100% trustworthy, but improvement is good.

Funny though she doesn't give the usual indicators such as hackles up or growling...in-fact I've never heard her growl and she rarely barks. Attacks like the stealth!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

teela

Instructor rotation and some are better than others - I wonder if that's my club...

Some of the instructors have aggressive dogs. And my dog always wants to greet them. And the signal to stop her - is writ clear on the instructor's faces. Oops I forgot. Though my dog doesn't upset the fear aggressive ones - cos she's crawling along the ground as flat as she can get grovel grovel.

I also have a lot of hope for your dog - since she can get along with your other dogs at home. So theoretically - it's not a brain tumor causing the problem and the right training ought to have some effect.

My club is not too cluey about rewards based training, distraction training, LAT training or how to get a dog comfortable with something that was causing major distraction.

It doesn't matter why the dog is distracted, fear, aggression, playfulness, hunger, curiosity - the method is the same. Ie work at a sufficient distance that your dog can play attention to you. Then run the drill again - slightly closer. If the dog so much as looks at another dog - you're too close etc. increase and decrease your distance by varying amounts eg +1 -3 +1 -2 +1 -3 etc.

I think that some dogs that attack with no warning - have been punished, corrected or scolded for giving a warning eg a growl - so they learn to just attack. There are usually some signals they're uncomfortable - eg calming signals or general tension and anxiety.

But I think I'd still get the professional in. They're usually better at spotting the problem and finding ways to deal with it than most people.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[~*Shell*~]

Teela - it is possible to rehabilitate an aggressive dog. It just takes some work! I have done it myself with Zero who was VERY dog aggressive. We went to see Steve at k9pro and he was amazing. Some other trainers had told me to have him put to sleep because he was a lost cause. It really does suck to own an aggressive dog!

Get a professional to help you. Aggression shouldn't be dealt with over the internet - someone needs to assess the dog in person, find out why the dog is acting the way it is so they can come up with a management and rehab plan.

Good luck!

[sandgrubber]

to both Teela and Deejay

I hope you have discussed the aggression problem with the breeder from whom you acquired your dogs. There are inherited components to aggression. I'm not saying your dogs have inherited aggressive traits . . . just that they could. It is important that breeders get feedback when their pups turn out with temperament faults . . . every bit as important as knowing about hip or elbow dysplasia. And if there is a reasonable chance that the aggression runs in the bloodlines, please don't breed the dogs in question.

[Tempus Fugit]

Reading this thread reminded me of my 2nd german shepherd, that I got as a 3 1/2 year old FTGH. When I got him he would try to alpha roll any dog he came across (including my other rescue shetlie/husky cross) and I actually got bitten a couple of times holding him close to me as we passed other dogs being walked (redirected agression). I enrolled him in obedience school and used traditional discipline - a firm NO and strong correction with his check collar whenever he attempted to lunge at another dog. I was very happy when he eventually got his CDX title. (I wasn't game to try agility with him though).

His agression appeared to be due to insecurity. The few times he did roll a dog he never physically injured them. Snarling ferociously he just grabbed them by the throat and frightened them so much they submissively rolled on their backs and wet themselves. I worked out that it was a pre-emptive strike/ fight avoidance technique. To avoid a prolonged battle where he might get injured he went in hard and fast, similar to the shock and awe tactics used by the Australian, British and American forces to avoid a prolonged battle with Saddam Hussein's forces when invading Iraq. In that case it was a pre-emptive strike because the allies were afraid Saddam would attack them with 'weapons of mass destruction'. With my sheppie, he apparently also had a fear that the other dog would attack him if he didn't get in first. The controlled environment of obedience class and daily obedience drill (which asserted my pack leadership) seemed to settle his fears somewhat.

Thankfully the owners of the loose dogs he rolled never tried to pull their dogs away, since my understanding of an alpha roll is that depends on the underdog being completely submissive and still. Any movement of the underdog is interpreted by the 'alpha' dog as an attempt to fight back and will result in the alpha dog resuming its attack.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Tempus Fugit

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-RSPCAs-view-on-dominance-dog-training_475.html

Aversive methods may also increase the dog’s underlying fear and anxiety which can actually make the unwanted behaviour much worse. Aversive methods can also reduce the quality of the relationship between the owner and the dog and they can place the owner at serious risk of physical injury.

And we all know how well that shock and awe thing worked out. It's no way to build long term good will or change behaviour.

[MsKatie]

Just another reccomendation for Mark Singer - has worked with both of my dogs - and also worked with us as a family, which was what we needed.

[jacqui835]

Why can't the dog be walked on a lead locally? That would give it enough exercise and sniffing time Millions of dogs live their lives without the stress of a dog park .

There is help available if your mum's in a city . Ask on here, and we'll point you in the right direction !

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy. I could walk all day with my dog on the leash, and when I got home, he would still be rearing to go and probably destroy my house in frustration. I know my sister's papillons are more than satisfied with a walk to the shops and back, but my doberman can do a morning of lure coursing, an afternoon of swimming and running at the beach and an evening of chasing the cat and still have energy to spare - and I imagine that a german shepherd could be similar. I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that. I do it for training purposes and so that I can take him with me everywhere.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

I also agree that 'firm handling' could be of use. My dog went through a stage at 7-9 months of wanting to fight and dominate other dogs, as did many of the other dominant breed males he had played with so happily up until then (GSD's, staffies etc). We came down on him hard, I don't mean beating him or anything, but grabbing the side of his neck, corrections with check chains etc and after a few weeks of that, well over a year later and he has not had any further issues. Sometimes a behaviour comes naturally (male entire dobermans are not typically accepting of other large males), and your dog doesn't have fear or feel pain so they're not looking for a way to avoid the situation - they want to dominate and it drives them. So praising them for good behaviour doesn't cut it, they are not satisfied. We had to make sure our dog knew we would not accept that sort of behaviour. One of the ladies back at Centennial Park owned a GSD, a couple of months older than Sammy who went through a similar phase. She used only praise and desexed him to try and solve his behavioural problems, even though prior to that he was going to be used for breeding (he was to this day the most magnificent GSD I have ever seen). Well he can't go to parks anymore because he's very DA.

I have a dog now that other dogs can launch themselves at, rudely bash right into him kind of thing, and he barely bats an eye lid.

[megan_]

Aggression is a symptom of many varied root causes. You need to find out what is causing the behaviour and address that.

If a dog has fear aggression, aversive methods can make them more fearful. It can also suppress warning signals (I growl, I get corrected, therefore I won't growl. I still feel uncomfortable and will attack if they come any nearer). That is very dangerous. All it teaches a dog to do is to suppress their warning signals. It can also make them fear the thing that scares them more (every time I see a child I get corrected. Therefore children are something to be scared of!).

Using non-adversive mthods doesn't just mean praise, it means building a system that includes predicability, stability etc. Just because someone that you know has a GSD that had praise and now can't go to the park because it is DA demonstrates nothing.

ETA: Jacqui - have you heard of redirected aggression? You're lucky that you didn't land up getting bitten simply because you were the nearest thing. I'm sure you not suggesting that the OP do anything similar because to give such advice over the interwebs would be very dangerous .

Edited November 8, 2011 by megan_

[Kelpie-i]

One small tip.....Do not treat aggression with aggression!

[ChristineX]

Thats why we say go see a real professional like Mark Singer - aggression/reactivity is a symptom, and you need to treat the cause. If you'd tried 'firm handling' with my Duke, you would have broken him for life - his stems from fear and hysteria (no coping mechanisms for the outside world at all). On the other hand, there is a reactive german shep at my club that has reached a point where firm handling is doing nicely. You need someone to identify the cause, and work out how to handle the cause. Fix that, you fix the aggression/reactivity. And at the moment, aggression at home is rising, but there is no point in 'firm handling', looking at his legs, Duke has put his back out again and its a symptom of pain. Recommended course of action: see the Chiro again. :D

[huski]

Why can't the dog be walked on a lead locally? That would give it enough exercise and sniffing time Millions of dogs live their lives without the stress of a dog park .

There is help available if your mum's in a city . Ask on here, and we'll point you in the right direction !

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy. I could walk all day with my dog on the leash, and when I got home, he would still be rearing to go and probably destroy my house in frustration. I know my sister's papillons are more than satisfied with a walk to the shops and back, but my doberman can do a morning of lure coursing, an afternoon of swimming and running at the beach and an evening of chasing the cat and still have energy to spare - and I imagine that a german shepherd could be similar. I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that. I do it for training purposes and so that I can take him with me everywhere.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

I also agree that 'firm handling' could be of use. My dog went through a stage at 7-9 months of wanting to fight and dominate other dogs, as did many of the other dominant breed males he had played with so happily up until then (GSD's, staffies etc). We came down on him hard, I don't mean beating him or anything, but grabbing the side of his neck, corrections with check chains etc and after a few weeks of that, well over a year later and he has not had any further issues. Sometimes a behaviour comes naturally (male entire dobermans are not typically accepting of other large males), and your dog doesn't have fear or feel pain so they're not looking for a way to avoid the situation - they want to dominate and it drives them. So praising them for good behaviour doesn't cut it, they are not satisfied. We had to make sure our dog knew we would not accept that sort of behaviour. One of the ladies back at Centennial Park owned a GSD, a couple of months older than Sammy who went through a similar phase. She used only praise and desexed him to try and solve his behavioural problems, even though prior to that he was going to be used for breeding (he was to this day the most magnificent GSD I have ever seen). Well he can't go to parks anymore because he's very DA.

I have a dog now that other dogs can launch themselves at, rudely bash right into him kind of thing, and he barely bats an eye lid.

I think that is a hugely simplified view of something that actually very complex.

You don't know that it was the fact the owner used praise that didn't stop her dogs aggression. You don't know that giving it rough corrections on a check chain would have made it better. There are more ways to deal with aggression than those two choices, and I don't know any reputable trainer or behaviourist who deals with aggression with either of those methods.

I agree with others that aggression is not something that can really be advised on seriously over the net.

[raineth]

Why can't the dog be walked on a lead locally? That would give it enough exercise and sniffing time Millions of dogs live their lives without the stress of a dog park .

There is help available if your mum's in a city . Ask on here, and we'll point you in the right direction !

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy. I could walk all day with my dog on the leash, and when I got home, he would still be rearing to go and probably destroy my house in frustration. I know my sister's papillons are more than satisfied with a walk to the shops and back, but my doberman can do a morning of lure coursing, an afternoon of swimming and running at the beach and an evening of chasing the cat and still have energy to spare - and I imagine that a german shepherd could be similar. I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that. I do it for training purposes and so that I can take him with me everywhere.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

hey Jacqui,

I have a very energetic dog who would like to work all the time. and I also fostered an even more super energetic dog.

Instead of trying to tire and work him out, have you thought about teaching him to relax? Or in effect teaching him that at times the job is to just be chilled out?

I have been really focusing on this and its made a huge difference I know she could go and go, and give and give, all day. And some days I do tonnes of stuff with her and that's not a problem. But now 99% of the time she just relaxes when we're not doing anything

Just a thought

Also I reccommend a backpack which you could use to use up more of his energy when going for a walk

[corvus]

Aggression is a symptom of many varied root causes. You need to find out what is causing the behaviour and address that.

It can be confusing, especially when dogs are too close to the other dog. They will tend to 'blow up' and attack even if what they really wanted to do all along was avoid. I can't stress enough how useful distance is. It slows everything down so you can better see what the dog wants to do, gives the dog space to be more calm, and that puts them in good state for getting acceptable alternative behaviours you can reward. There's a dog that goes to our dog park that has had a go at Erik a few times for no real reason except that Erik didn't get out of the way fast enough. E really hates him. If we are maybe 20m away from the dog, E will want to approach him barking. But if we are maybe 30m away, Erik will duck behind me so I'm between him and the dog and look away. It's not really obvious from his behaviour alone that he is scared of this dog and wants to avoid him until he has more distance and feels that is an option for him.

[dee lee]

ETA: Jacqui - have you heard of redirected aggression? You're lucky that you didn't land up getting bitten simply because you were the nearest thing.

Yes, I've had that experience.

In conjunction with a trainer, we initially used aversive methods on my DA staffy cross. This had the flow on effect of causing her to redirect her aggression towards me. Luckily she was only 17kgs and I was able to prevent her reaching me- I doubt I'd be so fortunate with a larger dog.

My dog was crossed with something high in drive and energy (possibly kelpie). My OH would take her for a hard run onlead for 45 mins and she would beg for more. She would have loved to have a run offlead. Too bad.

Her aggression meant she was not safe to be let offlead, so she was never allowed to be.

I feel its highly irresponsible, not to mention unethical, to place a DA dog's preference to run offlead as a higher priority over another dog's safety.

[persephone]

I feel its highly irresponsible, not to mention unethical, to place a DA dog's preference to run offlead as a higher priority over another dog's safety.

yes.

[jacqui835]

Why can't the dog be walked on a lead locally? That would give it enough exercise and sniffing time Millions of dogs live their lives without the stress of a dog park .

There is help available if your mum's in a city . Ask on here, and we'll point you in the right direction !

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy. I could walk all day with my dog on the leash, and when I got home, he would still be rearing to go and probably destroy my house in frustration. I know my sister's papillons are more than satisfied with a walk to the shops and back, but my doberman can do a morning of lure coursing, an afternoon of swimming and running at the beach and an evening of chasing the cat and still have energy to spare - and I imagine that a german shepherd could be similar. I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that. I do it for training purposes and so that I can take him with me everywhere.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

hey Jacqui,

I have a very energetic dog who would like to work all the time. and I also fostered an even more super energetic dog.

Instead of trying to tire and work him out, have you thought about teaching him to relax? Or in effect teaching him that at times the job is to just be chilled out?

I have been really focusing on this and its made a huge difference I know she could go and go, and give and give, all day. And some days I do tonnes of stuff with her and that's not a problem. But now 99% of the time she just relaxes when we're not doing anything

Just a thought

Also I reccommend a backpack which you could use to use up more of his energy when going for a walk

He knows how to relax - there are days now when we can skip a walk all together (which is lucky because there were a few days over winter when I could not go out because of a bad cold). But he needs a couple of days a week at least of real exercise or else he starts doing things like chasing his tail, being destructive etc and annoying with us. You know if we go for a long drive it's not like he's throwing himself around the car, he will just sleep for the most part. And he comes with me everywhere - so he can happily sit at my feet in a cafe or whatever and not cause trouble. But we can ask him to do that on those occasions because several times a week, we do drain his energy. If all we did was walk him around the block a few times a week on the lead, we would have a very frustrated and unsatisfied pooch. As you said yourself, you do tonnes of things with your dog and then they relax the rest of the time - they won't relax without that "tonnes of stuff".

Also he has a backpack, I once posted photos of him racing along with his backpack carrying over 10kg - which I think is about the most he can safely carry given his weight but he seems unphased.

I was wrong though to try and give advice over the internet re aggression. When I corrected my dog he was still far away from the other dog. Once they were actually going at it we weren't correcting, we were just trying to separate. And I was wrong again because in my case, my dog never wanted to kill the shepherd, he just wanted to dominate so it wasn't a real fight as such - ie there were only the accidental puncture wounds (if any) talked about that article, "he just wants to say hi".

Edited November 9, 2011 by jacqui835

[raineth]

Why can't the dog be walked on a lead locally? That would give it enough exercise and sniffing time Millions of dogs live their lives without the stress of a dog park .

There is help available if your mum's in a city . Ask on here, and we'll point you in the right direction !

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy. I could walk all day with my dog on the leash, and when I got home, he would still be rearing to go and probably destroy my house in frustration. I know my sister's papillons are more than satisfied with a walk to the shops and back, but my doberman can do a morning of lure coursing, an afternoon of swimming and running at the beach and an evening of chasing the cat and still have energy to spare - and I imagine that a german shepherd could be similar. I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that. I do it for training purposes and so that I can take him with me everywhere.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

hey Jacqui,

I have a very energetic dog who would like to work all the time. and I also fostered an even more super energetic dog.

Instead of trying to tire and work him out, have you thought about teaching him to relax? Or in effect teaching him that at times the job is to just be chilled out?

I have been really focusing on this and its made a huge difference I know she could go and go, and give and give, all day. And some days I do tonnes of stuff with her and that's not a problem. But now 99% of the time she just relaxes when we're not doing anything

Just a thought

Also I reccommend a backpack which you could use to use up more of his energy when going for a walk

He knows how to relax - there are days now when we can skip a walk all together (which is lucky because there were a few days over winter when I could not go out because of a bad cold). But he needs a couple of days a week at least of real exercise or else he starts doing things like chasing his tail, being destructive etc and annoying with us. You know if we go for a long drive it's not like he's throwing himself around the car, he will just sleep for the most part. And he comes with me everywhere - so he can happily sit at my feet in a cafe or whatever and not cause trouble. But we can ask him to do that on those occasions because several times a week, we do drain his energy. If all we did was walk him around the block a few times a week on the lead, we would have a very frustrated and unsatisfied pooch. As you said yourself, you do tonnes of things with your dog and then they relax the rest of the time - they won't relax without that "tonnes of stuff".Also he has a backpack, I once posted photos of him racing along with his backpack carrying over 10kg - which I think is about the most he can safely carry given his weight but he seems unphased.

all good then

Do you love he back pack? I just love ours, i think its about the best thing I've ever bought.

I will correct you on the bolded bit though as that's not quite what I meant

I do tonnes of stuff with her about once every ten weeks. What I meant was that when I have the opportunity to have a jam-packed day with her she keeps us just fine.

She is content with an onlead walk every day and a training session every couple of days

eta: by content I mean she has learned to just relax when things aren't on... not to always be looking for things to do, getting into mischief, or trying to 'work me'

Edited November 9, 2011 by raineth