jr_inoz Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 In this case, it hasn't appeared in the lines before - although the mum had two puppies not survive birth. In this case too, the mating was a complete outcross - from an imported dog. It is also a rare thing in this breed. (In this state at least). I am uncertain as to what I will do in the future. Fingers still crossed for a successful litter. She is just over 7 weeks pregnant and things still ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 In this case, it hasn't appeared in the lines before - although the mum had two puppies not survive birth. In this case too, the mating was a complete outcross - from an imported dog. It is also a rare thing in this breed. (In this state at least). I am uncertain as to what I will do in the future. Fingers still crossed for a successful litter. She is just over 7 weeks pregnant and things still ok. Whew - you only have to hold your breath for another 2 weeks.You have probably already said but you intended to keep a bitch for breeding if the progesterone thing wasnt in the mix - is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 In this case, it hasn't appeared in the lines before - although the mum had two puppies not survive birth. In this case too, the mating was a complete outcross - from an imported dog. It is also a rare thing in this breed. (In this state at least). I am uncertain as to what I will do in the future. Fingers still crossed for a successful litter. She is just over 7 weeks pregnant and things still ok. Whew - you only have to hold your breath for another 2 weeks.You have probably already said but you intended to keep a bitch for breeding if the progesterone thing wasnt in the mix - is that right? Yep. So not sure now. I am only ever going to be a very small breeder - possibly only one or two litters ever - so not sure as to ways forward really. There is apparently a DNA test you can do for pregnancy loss syndrome that I didn't know about until after she was mated and may be the issue here. Will test her for this later. If she doesn't have it we will have exhausted all the reasons as to why her progesterone drops. The two repo vets here said that sometimes there is just no reason for it that can be found, anyway. The other sheltie breeder that used prog supplementing had a bitch that lost a litter, needed to supplement the next one, but not the one after. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) If you don't keep a bitch, you will always be wondering if you should have! If you do at least, you can see when you breed her if she has the same problem, if she does, well you know not to go there again, if she doesn't...well that's great. Edited February 3, 2012 by HANNAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 So many things to take into account .I think in your position I would put the fact that she is a bugger at keeping a litter without extras on one side and make sure you let everyone know that this bitch with this pedigree has had this problem. You can enter this for recording on the MDBA data base free of charge as well. That alerts anyone who has problems in future with any dog related that there is a risk this is what went wrong with their litter and they can treat it the way you have or to say its in the lines and not try any intervention. It would be a completely different answer if everyone in your breed were seeing this and if her Mum or her grandmother did this she wouldn't be here so until we have more info and we can see that its something which we need to select against or we can be sure its caused by some other reason I would keep the info close in my mind and move on as i intended to before the problem showed. For all we know supplementing the progesterone during pregnancy might impact on whether the girls in the litter will have the problem anyway. So until we have further info I would make sure I encouraged everyone to keep these kind of records and share them and start your own research project which in a few years time might answer questions for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 So many things to take into account .I think in your position I would put the fact that she is a bugger at keeping a litter without extras on one side and make sure you let everyone know that this bitch with this pedigree has had this problem. You can enter this for recording on the MDBA data base free of charge as well. That alerts anyone who has problems in future with any dog related that there is a risk this is what went wrong with their litter and they can treat it the way you have or to say its in the lines and not try any intervention. It would be a completely different answer if everyone in your breed were seeing this and if her Mum or her grandmother did this she wouldn't be here so until we have more info and we can see that its something which we need to select against or we can be sure its caused by some other reason I would keep the info close in my mind and move on as i intended to before the problem showed. For all we know supplementing the progesterone during pregnancy might impact on whether the girls in the litter will have the problem anyway. So until we have further info I would make sure I encouraged everyone to keep these kind of records and share them and start your own research project which in a few years time might answer questions for all of us. thanks so much for your advice. I was meaning to respond earlier with your other post as I found your information really helpful for my thinking. It helped to rule out things in terms of knowing that it wasn't close breeding that was the issue. I am having a quiet chuckle at the bit I've bolded - in South Australia, there is now a compulsory subject called "The Research Project" for all year 12 students that I am teaching. Kinda ironic that I am conducting my own research project whilst I'm teaching the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) In this case, it hasn't appeared in the lines before - although the mum had two puppies not survive birth. In this case too, the mating was a complete outcross - from an imported dog. It is also a rare thing in this breed. (In this state at least). I am uncertain as to what I will do in the future. Fingers still crossed for a successful litter. She is just over 7 weeks pregnant and things still ok. Whew - you only have to hold your breath for another 2 weeks.You have probably already said but you intended to keep a bitch for breeding if the progesterone thing wasnt in the mix - is that right? Yep. So not sure now. I am only ever going to be a very small breeder - possibly only one or two litters ever - so not sure as to ways forward really. There is apparently a DNA test you can do for pregnancy loss syndrome that I didn't know about until after she was mated and may be the issue here. Will test her for this later. If she doesn't have it we will have exhausted all the reasons as to why her progesterone drops. The two repo vets here said that sometimes there is just no reason for it that can be found, anyway. The other sheltie breeder that used prog supplementing had a bitch that lost a litter, needed to supplement the next one, but not the one after. Weird. From Mini Gir Just read your post - and the DNA test for pregnancy loss syndome - did not know there was a dna test for this - who is it through? Must check it out. Hopping your girl makes it to her litter without any problems - have been thinking of you and keeping an eye out for your posts .I am hopeful of letting my girl have another litter at the end of the year - and will see what I get as far as keeping a pup - if I do I wil have all the tests done and take regular progesterone test on the girl to be sure when I do breed her - but it may also help to know if a girl from a mother who lost pups from low progesterone is going to be the smae. My girl who lost a litter then had a beautiful litter of 8 with the help of the progesterone from day 39 continues to be an absolute joy and I hear her pups are just beautiful - I will go again but of course at 4 weeks have the scan and then the progesterone tests and if she needs the suppliments again will hope with all my heart it turns out as well as last time. Good luck with you little girl and keep us posted of the outcome. Edited February 5, 2012 by mini girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 mini girl, I am not sure of the exact name of the test, but I am pretty sure that the repro vet here said it was done through Monash. It has a different name to "pregnancy loss syndrome" - something scientific but I can't remember what it is. I didn't write it down at the time. I just remembered what it was testing for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 To Jr Inoz Have been looking out for your post - hope your pups arrived safely and well. Love to hear if all ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 To Jr Inoz Have been looking out for your post - hope your pups arrived safely and well. Love to hear if all ok sorry mini girl - I posted in the "litters due in feb" thread. No success here. Puppies delivered dead by caesarean on due date. When I get pathology results back, will post about the whole experience. May be helpful for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 To Jr Inoz Have been looking out for your post - hope your pups arrived safely and well. Love to hear if all ok sorry mini girl - I posted in the "litters due in feb" thread. No success here. Puppies delivered dead by caesarean on due date. When I get pathology results back, will post about the whole experience. May be helpful for others. So very sorry this happened - was so hoping for a good outcome for your little girl and you - nothing can be said but I am thinking of you and try not to get too down about it - but its just not fair. Will be thinking of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 So sorry, do let us know what the results show. Curious to know how many days was the c-sec done from ovulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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