Successful Litter With Progesterone Help

[mini girl]

I had put a topic on about my girl being put on progesterone to enable her to carry her pups to full term. She lost her first litter at 51 days so for next litter had progesterone tests done and she started suppliments at day 39 - already written how she had her pups on her own at day 62 and nearly a week later all is going well. I was so pleased she didn't need the c/section and just wondering others experience with using progesterone - did any deliver normally or was I just lucky - and how were the pups? This litter is wonderful all born without any problems and came out ready to grab a nipple and haven't stopped since. There isn't a lot written about it really - have searched the net found a bit but have not been able to find an explanation of what actually causes it and if it runs in lines or is just a one off - I know my girl's mother didn't have this. Also wonder if I do let her have another litter will it be likely to happen again?

[Trisven13]

I'm a LONG way from an expert having not even had my first litter yet but I do remember reading loads of Norsgkra's posts about her Norwegian Elkhounds before she passed away. She needed to use progesterone for both her bitch and her daughter if I recall correctly to enable them to carry a litter. They also, if I recall, only had small litters and I'm sure I remember that one at least needed a c-section.

That same bitch however went on to carry a pup without any progesterone etc and whelped naturally whilst in boarding kennels (after an ultrasound showed no pups).

That is the limit of my knowledge about the need for progesterone and how it has passed or not passed down lines

ETA - might be worth trying to find her old posts about it - it was all in Breeders Community and probably about 4 years ago?????

Edited October 24, 2011 by Trisven13

[jr_inoz]

I am wanting to ask similar questions of people in here.

I am heading off to an ultrasound tomorrow on my bitch - hopefully confirming a pregnancy of 4 weeks. We will be progesterone supplementing this time round, given she lost her litter last time at day 51 as well.

My mentor, and other breeders in my breed nearby have not had experience in progesterone supplementing their bitches.

I would like some advice on what questions to ask. Unluckily for me, my vet is going away during the last two weeks of my girls pregnancy. I will be asking him for recommendations for another vet whilst he is away, and will have questions about how often we will need to prog test during her pregnancy and what we will be supplementing her with etc. I've been reading up, and I am pretty sure the vet will be recommending tablets as opposed to injections. If anyone can tell me the advantages of injections or tablets, let me know.

For those that have prog supplemented - did you supplement regardless of prog levels? From what time in the pregnancy did you supplement? Were there side effects you had to watch out for? I know c-sections are more likely with prog supplementing. Was that your experience?

What else should I be asking about?

Any suggestions gratefully received.

[mini girl]

Good luck with your girl - I hope the end result is as good as mine turned out to be - 8 beautiful pups all delivered naturally - and now all happily living in lovely homes.

I took my girl to a reproduction specialist vet Phil Thomas here in Brisbane - and it started with the ultrasound and blood test which at 28 days was normal - we continued the blood test at weekly intervals ( I think now) and at day 39 the levels were dropping so she started on one tablet of progesterone each morning - another ultrasounds and also blood tests - I can only say the reproduction vet was wonderful - spoke to me every day on the phone during the last 12 or so days - and he had to go away from the Thursday till the Sunday - so arranged for the other reproduction specialist to talk to me those days. I watched her like a hawk and she was booked into for a c/section on the Monday - but on the Sunday morning - while I was on the phone to the stand in vet she popped out a puppy - just like that - the other seven came all within an hour and a half - amazing - she never looked back just looked after the pups so well and she was fit and well too. All continues to go well with mum and she is as bouncy and happy as ever now 13 weeks later. I do remember the vet telling me that the progesterone was human grade - I do have the notes on it all he sent me I can let you have them on a message if you are interested.

I do want to let her have another litter and will go into it next time with a lot less worry - of course there is always a bit of uncertainty but now going through it I feel a lot more confident.

The vet did say what happened is not very common - he had not treated a lot of cases before - also remember him say that giving progesterone too early can cause problems for the pups but this was not altogether cetain - but as my girl didn't start till day 40 all pups were healthy and strong. Sometimes it can happen quite early and the pups are adsorbed by the mother - having them get to day 51 is less common - and soooo distressing - never want to re-live that morning - but what came to follow was wonderful.

Again - good luck.

[jr_inoz]

so it actually wasn't long from ultrasound before you had to start treatment - just over a week?

I'll be asking lots of questions about that. There are only the two repro vets here in Adelaide and they live on opposite sides of town. They do chat with each other a lot so things should be fine if one has to go away.

[mini girl]

so it actually wasn't long from ultrasound before you had to start treatment - just over a week?

I'll be asking lots of questions about that. There are only the two repro vets here in Adelaide and they live on opposite sides of town. They do chat with each other a lot so things should be fine if one has to go away.

Ultrasound 28 days progesterone treatment at 39 days - no more problems after suppliments.

[jr_inoz]

so far.... ultrasound at 30 days, prog test at 31 with low levels, supplement started at 33 days.... ultrasound booked in, to monitor at 37 days.

All fingers and toes crossed still.

(thanks for your help)

[LizT]

I have read that Progesterone treatment can increase the incidence of Pyometra occurring by up to 25%.

Something to be aware of.

[jr_inoz]

I have read that Progesterone treatment can increase the incidence of Pyometra occurring by up to 25%.

Something to be aware of.

Do you have a link? I am reading everything I can get my hands on at the moment.

Cheers

[LizT]

I have read that Progesterone treatment can increase the incidence of Pyometra occurring by up to 25%.

Something to be aware of.

Do you have a link? I am reading everything I can get my hands on at the moment.

Cheers

This is just one of heaps I've been reading about.

What causes pyometra?

Pyometra is established as a result of hormonal changes. Following oestrus ("heat"), progesterone levels remain elevated for 8-10 weeks and thicken the lining of the uterus in preparation for pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur for several oestrus cycles, the lining continues to increase in thickness until cysts form within it. The thickened, cystic lining secretes fluids that create an ideal environment in which bacteria can grow. Additionally, high progesterone levels inhibit the ability of the muscles in the wall of the uterus to contract.

The risk of pyometra is also increased by the use of progesterone-based drugs. In addition, oestrogen will increase the effects of progesterone on the uterus. Drugs containing both hormones are used to treat certain conditions of the reproductive system.

Here is the link.

http://www.ingleburnvet.com.au/pyometra.htm

[Fordogs]

I have just started my girl on Progesterone injections.

She is not a maiden bitch, she had a litter of nine puppies 3 years ago and since then even though we have done swabs, thyroid and full blood count and all results have been normal, Progesterone testing and very good matings at the right time she has failed to have a litter.

This time she has been seen by a repro vet prior to her season and the advice given was to start her on Elevit and to give her daily Acidophius or Protexin which was started 2 month prior to her season and Progesterone injections twice a week 3 weeks after mating.

Fingers crossed we will have a good result this time.

[jr_inoz]

Six and a half weeks and ultrasound showing healthy, growing puppies. Fingers still crossed.

It was recommended that she have regular ultrasounds during this pregnancy to make sure puppies are ok. The thinking by the two repo vets here is that if she just has low progesterone which causes the pregnancies to fail, then that is ok, but if the low progesterone is caused by puppies dying first, then it is important to check puppies so that the you can make sure things are ok and the progesterone supplement isn't stopping the bitch from getting rid of puppies that may have died and thus putting the bitch at risk.

So far so good.

[Kustali]

Six and a half weeks and ultrasound showing healthy, growing puppies. Fingers still crossed.

It was recommended that she have regular ultrasounds during this pregnancy to make sure puppies are ok. The thinking by the two repo vets here is that if she just has low progesterone which causes the pregnancies to fail, then that is ok, but if the low progesterone is caused by puppies dying first, then it is important to check puppies so that the you can make sure things are ok and the progesterone supplement isn't stopping the bitch from getting rid of puppies that may have died and thus putting the bitch at risk.

So far so good.

Good luck! I know of a few girls now that have been supplemented and have gone on to deliver healthy litters of puppies!

For interest could you post prog numbers, the days tested and when you have supplemented?

Good idea re the U/S and the Vets theory

[jr_inoz]

Six and a half weeks and ultrasound showing healthy, growing puppies. Fingers still crossed.

It was recommended that she have regular ultrasounds during this pregnancy to make sure puppies are ok. The thinking by the two repo vets here is that if she just has low progesterone which causes the pregnancies to fail, then that is ok, but if the low progesterone is caused by puppies dying first, then it is important to check puppies so that the you can make sure things are ok and the progesterone supplement isn't stopping the bitch from getting rid of puppies that may have died and thus putting the bitch at risk.

So far so good.

Good luck! I know of a few girls now that have been supplemented and have gone on to deliver healthy litters of puppies!

For interest could you post prog numbers, the days tested and when you have supplemented?

Good idea re the U/S and the Vets theory

her first prog test was on day 31 (day after ultrasound) and was 21. This was a Saturday and due to a server problem with the pathology place, we couldn't (as in the vet) get the results until Sunday afternoon. We started supplementing Monday morning. (I drove two and half hours to pick up tablets). I also had her tested that morning and her level was 20.4. We haven't tested her since she started the supplements - the reasoning being (from both repo vets) that the progesterone will raise her levels and over supplementation isn't an issue. The weekly ultrasound is what is important. She stops the supplements 4 days before her due date and I think we prog test again two days out to see what is happening. Doesn't matter if she whelps before her due date, but regardless, she will have a caesarean on her due date if she hasn't had them by then. Apparently, with prog supplementing, it can cause a bitch not to go into labour and so both vets have advised to not let her go past her due date at all.

In future litters, I will insist on a prog test at 21 days I reckon and again at 28 days. I was really worried that we were too late this time around. If it turns out that she has these puppies safely, I will probably do one less ultrasound than what I am doing. I will do the DNA test for the pregnancy loss syndrome after she has had this litter. If she has it, she won't have another. Week 7 - 7 and a half is a big hurdle for me - it is the time that she lost both of the other litters.

Steep learning curve. Only one other breeder in my breed, in this state has ever had to prog supplement before.

[sandgrubber]

I had put a topic on about my girl being put on progesterone to enable her to carry her pups to full term. She lost her first litter at 51 days so for next litter had progesterone tests done and she started suppliments at day 39 - already written how she had her pups on her own at day 62 and nearly a week later all is going well. I was so pleased she didn't need the c/section and just wondering others experience with using progesterone - did any deliver normally or was I just lucky - and how were the pups? This litter is wonderful all born without any problems and came out ready to grab a nipple and haven't stopped since. There isn't a lot written about it really - have searched the net found a bit but have not been able to find an explanation of what actually causes it and if it runs in lines or is just a one off - I know my girl's mother didn't have this. Also wonder if I do let her have another litter will it be likely to happen again?

I don't know the answer, and may be flamed for suggesting this, but is your girl from a breed that commonly has reproductive problems? Is she from a breed that has a small gene pool? This is the sort of reproductive failure I'd expect from dogs with a high degree of homozygosity, either due to inbreeding or due to a small founder population and/or some bottlenecks in the breed evolution. This may seem harsh and forgive me for suggesting, but personally, I don't think a girl who can't carry pups to full term should be bred from.

[mini girl]

I had put a topic on about my girl being put on progesterone to enable her to carry her pups to full term. She lost her first litter at 51 days so for next litter had progesterone tests done and she started suppliments at day 39 - already written how she had her pups on her own at day 62 and nearly a week later all is going well. I was so pleased she didn't need the c/section and just wondering others experience with using progesterone - did any deliver normally or was I just lucky - and how were the pups? This litter is wonderful all born without any problems and came out ready to grab a nipple and haven't stopped since. There isn't a lot written about it really - have searched the net found a bit but have not been able to find an explanation of what actually causes it and if it runs in lines or is just a one off - I know my girl's mother didn't have this. Also wonder if I do let her have another litter will it be likely to happen again?

I don't know the answer, and may be flamed for suggesting this, but is your girl from a breed that commonly has reproductive problems? Is she from a breed that has a small gene pool? This is the sort of reproductive failure I'd expect from dogs with a high degree of homozygosity, either due to inbreeding or due to a small founder population and/or some bottlenecks in the breed evolution. This may seem harsh and forgive me for suggesting, but personally, I don't think a girl who can't carry pups to full term should be bred from.

I wish someone could tell me a reason this happens - and the trouble is that you don't know it is going to happen to you loose pups - I know my girl's mother was an excellent breeder and I must say except for the fact that she had to have the suppliments to get her to full term all was extremely good - she delivered the 8 pups without a problem - and out of the 3 other dogs I have bred it was the easiest delivery yet. She reared the pups very well and came through it all as fit as a fiddle - I would love with all my heart to keep a pup from her if I do decide to let her go again - I don't know any other breeders of my breed who have had this happen - the two dogs I put together were not close at all but you don;'t always know what has happened several generations back - its still a mystery to me but all I can say is that I am not sorry I did it - her pups were all beautiful and healthy and she is her wonderful bouncy self. I wonder how she would be with a different mate though.

[sandgrubber]

I had put a topic on about my girl being put on progesterone to enable her to carry her pups to full term. She lost her first litter at 51 days so for next litter had progesterone tests done and she started suppliments at day 39 - already written how she had her pups on her own at day 62 and nearly a week later all is going well. I was so pleased she didn't need the c/section and just wondering others experience with using progesterone - did any deliver normally or was I just lucky - and how were the pups? This litter is wonderful all born without any problems and came out ready to grab a nipple and haven't stopped since. There isn't a lot written about it really - have searched the net found a bit but have not been able to find an explanation of what actually causes it and if it runs in lines or is just a one off - I know my girl's mother didn't have this. Also wonder if I do let her have another litter will it be likely to happen again?

I don't know the answer, and may be flamed for suggesting this, but is your girl from a breed that commonly has reproductive problems? Is she from a breed that has a small gene pool? This is the sort of reproductive failure I'd expect from dogs with a high degree of homozygosity, either due to inbreeding or due to a small founder population and/or some bottlenecks in the breed evolution. This may seem harsh and forgive me for suggesting, but personally, I don't think a girl who can't carry pups to full term should be bred from.

I wish someone could tell me a reason this happens - and the trouble is that you don't know it is going to happen to you loose pups - I know my girl's mother was an excellent breeder and I must say except for the fact that she had to have the suppliments to get her to full term all was extremely good - she delivered the 8 pups without a problem - and out of the 3 other dogs I have bred it was the easiest delivery yet. She reared the pups very well and came through it all as fit as a fiddle - I would love with all my heart to keep a pup from her if I do decide to let her go again - I don't know any other breeders of my breed who have had this happen - the two dogs I put together were not close at all but you don;'t always know what has happened several generations back - its still a mystery to me but all I can say is that I am not sorry I did it - her pups were all beautiful and healthy and she is her wonderful bouncy self. I wonder how she would be with a different mate though.

If mini = miniature bull terrier, there's a good theoretical reason for it to happen. This is a pretty technical article

http://jhered.oxford...nt/94/1/81.full

It looks at the genetic diversity of 28 breeds by looking at the amount of 'mixing' (heterozygosity) in different alleles. The bull terrier and miniature bull terrier had the worst scores of the lot. Excess sorting out of genes (homozygosity) can cause all sorts of problems, depending on where it happens. It also leads to very predictable 'type', so breeders like it.

For some less technical descriptions of these problems . . . though a little militantly pro-diversity . . . see

http://www.astraean....inbred-mistakes

I'd read the one on lab mice first. Your girl isn't a lab mouse, and that's a much much more extreme situation . . . but the MBT is going that direction. There are people on DOL who deny that inbreeding depression happens . . . but on the far end of the spectrum (very highly inbred) it has been observed in many species and there's every reason to expect it to be found in dogs (the article on Island Wolves on the BorderWars site is pretty convincing).

Yes, a different dog might help. Go for the genetically most distant dog you can find. As the gene pool for minis is very small, it's important to go back many generations, like 10 or more if you can. Or alternatively, you might want to use the testing route:

http://www.petproduc...og-litters.aspx

or http://www.wisdompanel.com/assets/1/7/canine_chronicle.pdf

edited to fix quotes

Edited February 1, 2012 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

- I've been watching this pretty closely for about 10 years and even though its suggested that in breeding depression is responsible that only looks at one variable - how closely bred they are and the assumption is because of close breeding there is definitely a higher incidence in some breeds. In the three breeds Ive been watching I think it hasn't been - again I don't believe its about in breeding though it may be about selection. In fact if it were only about homozygosity it should be far more common and it should have shown up far more commonly before now.When it happens in women we dont ask how in bred she is either but rather we look at the length of her cervix as a short cervix correlates to potential issues like this and most dogs get pregnant , hold a litter and whelp the litter without a problem even though all purebred dogs are in bred - they have also located a gene which creates an enzyme which knocks out progesterone too - so we may be seeing that in the mix too. we may be seeing bitches which have a particular shape or curve in their cervix for all we know - both heritable.

In three breeds Ive been watching very closely it has become almost the norm and it's happening regardless of how hard the breeders are working at ensuring their bitches are not closely line bred - bringing in semen from several different countries and fretting over COI's etc. If it were happening due to non thriftiness of the whelps,consistently smaller litters no fertility at all etc I may take a minute longer to look closer and agree with you that lack of fertility and reproduction problems maybe caused by inbreeding but there are too many other variables to take into account to tag it as the cause and it would never be seen in cross bred bitches.

When I have spoken to professors who's specialty is genetics and canine reproduction they agree that selection will play a greater role. Im not saying that you are wrong across the board but I think the whole in breeding thing has taken on a momentum via PDE which in effect lets breeders off the hook.It picks a probable cause, and tells us outcrossing is the bees knees and will fix it

.In early pregnancy progesterone is produced primarily by a structure in the ovary called a corpus luteum.This structure is caused by ovulation when the eggs are released. If the bitch is pregnant then the placentas begin to produce progesterone [what happens if she isn't pregnant is another story but depending on how many times she has been in season this may impact on what happens when she is pregnant] the placenta is using Mum's cholesterol to produce high levels of progesterone.Ordinarily most of this progesterone enters Mums bloodstream with the rest used by the developing fetus. So if there isnt enough in Mum's bloodstream is it because the placenta isnt producing enough or because when it gets to the bloodstream something else is happening ? Another source of progesterone is milk products .After eating milk products bio availability of progesterone goes up too.

So what if its about what the grandmother ate or was exposed to- heaps of evidence to prove this has a huge impact on the reproductive issues of the grandaughters, it would seem that if its the gene which causes the enzyme which knocks out progesterone that it would knock it out even if it were supplimented.When Pottinger did his experiments he showed it was about diet with each generation being less able to reproduce which had nothing to do with inbreeding or selection.

Blaming in-breeding is the modern villan and blamed for all manner of things and it may be part of the answer .It gives you a way out- just go for animals which are further apart genetically - yet how come if a bitch is doing this she does it regardless of what dog you use? Do you really think if you use a dog from a different breed that your girl wouldn't have the problem?

So is it caused because she is closely related to the sire? Or is it caused because the bitch herself is in bred? Is it caused by something her grandmother was fed or was exposed to ? Is it because of something she is exposed to or is deficient in? If you breed on with her daughters and others breed on with bitches which originated from your bitches sisters will we see a higher incidence in their grand-daughters regardless of what mates are used.

Is it happening more now than it used to or are we just noticing it more ?

Fact is we don't have anywhere near the info we need to be able to make a confident call on it .

If its selection we have choices - one is to not keep any of her girls for breeding - or we use all of her girls and gran-daughters for breeding and only select those which don't have the problem for breeding in all future litters.

Without progesterone help this is the way it has been controlled up to now - you cant keep girls which don't survive in the womb.

If its dietary or environmental,how inbred - impacting on nanna without enough info to track back to get a clear view on nanna other than how in bred she is we all need to start here and record every tiny little thing "in case" which may affect or impact on our girl's offspring to use for knowledge if it turns up in future - whether we have ever seen it in our dogs or breeds before.

If its something we are doing - diet, environment which is impacting on this bitch as a one out we need to rip apart everything we are doing and hope we find what that is so her next litter doesnt need to have the supps and everyone lives happily ever after.

If its in breeding depression caused by nothing more than how closely related she is to her mate - easy just pick one that's not related

The fact is you can think you have the answer depending on where you come at it from. Hang out around people who are anti in breeding you will find a good prod to simply think thats the reason, hang out around people who are big on diet, no chemicals etc and you will find something you can ping it on, hang out around people who think you should simply select away from this kind of stuff and not interfer with nature and you will find your answer there.

Maybe its one maybe its a combination of all but either way its all theory and your answer is going to lay in what breed you have and how diverse and how large your gene pool is, how much info you have on your dog's ancestors ,what you feed, how you manage her ,what access you have to other bitches and how much you really want to give her daughters and gran-daughters a chance to show that its just a one off.

Keep in mind it doesn't matter what you do some wont agree with you .

If you breed her again - it will be someone saying - why would you.

If you breed her with the best mate regardless of how closely they are related - it will be someone saying - why would you.

if you keep her daughters for breeding - someone will say- why would you.

If you keep none for breeding - someone will say - why would you.

Up until now we have in the main selected for how the dog looks and we havent kept really good info on what we do on a day to day basis or things which may appear to be minor issues, we haven't shared that info and it hasnt been accessible to us unless we have been breeding for decades and we now have enough info of our own.

Rather than deciding one thing or another is the culprit or the answer we all have to start here and now and try to do what ever we can to move forward from where we are - you have this issue right here right now so you have to decide if its something that you are going to concentrate on and primarily watch for things which may impact on that as a priority or kick it to the kerb and decide whether its secondary to something else you may want to work on.

How do you know if you should keep her girls and her gran daughters for breeding? You don't - but if you do and keep the info and share it someone in the future may be able to answer the questions you are faced with now easier.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Steve

[sandgrubber]

Fact is we don't have anywhere near the info we need to be able to make a confident call on it .

I agree completely. . .

With respect to homozygosity, function is important. It matters where, on what chromosome, homozygosity is found, but navigation of the genome is a subject I've put in the 'too hard basket'. I'm inclined to believe that MHC/DLA matters with a lot of immune functions and may be important in hormonal balance, but I wouldn't bet much on it. Research is ongoing fast and furiously on this subject . . . hopefully we'll know more in years to come and some useful tests will become available.

We all have to make our own decisions, given that evidence is not conclusive and there are some hot opinions on both sides..

But questions of inbreeding aside, I think the tendency to premature delivery is roughly equivalent to inability to free whelp. If the dam had it and the daughter has it, I'd think twice before breeding . . . or keeping a daughter/granddaughter to carry on the line.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Steve]

Fact is we don't have anywhere near the info we need to be able to make a confident call on it .

I agree completely. . .

With respect to homozygosity, function is important. It matters where, on what chromosome, homozygosity is found, but navigation of the genome is a subject I've put in the 'too hard basket'. I'm inclined to believe that MHC/DLA matters with a lot of immune functions and may be important in hormonal balance, but I wouldn't bet much on it. Research is ongoing fast and furiously on this subject . . . hopefully we'll know more in years to come and some useful tests will become available.

We all have to make our own decisions, given that evidence is not conclusive and there are some hot opinions on both sides..

But questions of inbreeding aside, I think the tendency to premature delivery is roughly equivalent to inability to free whelp. If the dam had it and the daughter has it, I'd think twice before breeding . . . or keeping a daughter/granddaughter to carry on the line.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

I agree best to select away from it all things being equal.