Why Is It So

[Kaffy Magee]

I moved from Vic to qld early this year and I'm disappointed in the show scene. I used to travel 3 hours one way on a rgukar basis to show at kcc park, at least once a fortnight and often more. Numbers were always good and I loved the atmosphere. I used to do smaller shows occasionally as weekends away but I love the big metro shows. However qld doesn't seem to pull the numbers like Vic. One reason may be that they like to use local judges very frequently. I've heard durack sometimes only gets the same amount if entries that maryborough does (500ish)For me that's a small show and not worth my time driving all the way to durack, for a local judge and small numbers. I can get that 20 minutes away at maryborough. I will make the trip for a double header, international judges or even an interstate one, especially if I think I might do ok. So I've decided to stick to the local shows in my area, maryborough, bundaberg and gympie. It's nice having shows closer to me in qld than I used to however I just wish they were bigger. They need to do something to pick up the entries. I would drive to durack all the time if they could get numbers. Ibe noticed qld doesn't have many " big name" shows like Vic does with lilydale pot of gold, Australia day internationals, Vic womens, sunbury on cup day etc. Maybe they do but I havent noticed. Those are shows I always looked forward to with excitement, actually I used to look forward to most shows with excitement, unfortunately that has changed since the move. Having said all that shows in Vic are the only thing I miss so I will not be shifting back there no matter how good they were lol.

[Shaar]

It could be as mentioned as well as, just my thought, could it also be:

That we lock our dogs away from the general public. Purpose built venues that do not entice the general public to enter. Some do not want to come just to a dog show but if it was part of something else then it may have a greater appeal/audience factor, something for everybody!! Husband, wife, kids etc.

We used to have a lot of Agricultural Shows in Victoria. These shows were held in the local communitities and enticed vast numbers of show goers to come around and ask questions, some even purchased dogs and did dog showing for a couple of years.

So what could have caused this change, I can recall KCC Victoria Regs changed so that exhibitors had to obtain passes based on the number of exhibits that they entered and the number of Ag Shows offering dog shows decreased overnight. The KCC in return opened up their books for new affiliates which were/are solely kennel clubs, so what may be value to one member of the family maybe outvoted when it comes to choice of alternative activities to attend at the same time.

At the Launnie Royal this year I noticed there were very few members of the public watching Best in Show. I remember as a kid struggling to get a spot ringside to watch there were so many people. Even during the days of showing there weren't many people wandering through to see the dogs.

Recently the kennel section has been tucked away in the corner of the show so not as many people venture over. At our old ground we were right in the middle and one of the main attractions.

I agree that regular champ shows should be publicised more, but the question is how? Also if you are going to start inviting the public then you need to start restructuring the shows, you would need more volunteers to help in the canteen and you would probably need an announcer to give a commentary of what is happening so the public understands (introducing breeds, explaining best in group etc) much like they do at Royals.

[Gayle.]

Is it really because of the expense? There are lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than dog shows and yet their numbers don't seem to be dropping off.

[Showpony]

Is it really because of the expense? There are lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than dog shows and yet their numbers don't seem to be dropping off.

[Ceilidh]

Just a couple of points, if a judge already has a licence to judge a group (or all breeds) that gets a new breed then they have to do an open book exam on that new breed. No, there is no further testing, apart from the aforementioned, once a judge is licenced. I believe they should resit theory exams on a regular basis, not sure how often though.

Next, I think face judging is alive and well! Also judges who have been around soooooooo long they think they know a dog just by its entrance into the ring grrrrr and judges that are getting sooooooo old they just want to chat or get the hell out of the ring, again grrrr.

Lets hope we get some more new judges pass in the next round who have studied their butts off and know their breed standards and will apply them to the DOG!

I am also getting pretty jaded and am hoping I pass my prac and will concentrate more on judging than showing and hope I can go a small way to changing what is now thought of as norm.

(edited for spelling)

Edited October 19, 2011 by Ceilidh

[Showpony]

Hi,

Most of the reasons stated expense, accountability of judges, unfriendly exhibitors, travel time etc would affect some people, giving them a reason not to show or not show as often........I think the number of shows held in NSW spreads the base of exhibitors thinly eg last weekend there were cluster shows at Berrima, Newcastle, and Forbes........I have seen weekends where 24 shows are held and all are within a 3 hour driving distance of each other.

Someone mentioned judge accountability and refresher training for all judges, what a good idea.........this happens with horses and Dressage.

Judges training is another area.......the last 2 years I have been involved with the judges training program, taking dogs in.......one of the lectures given by a breed specialist and All Breeds judge was just plain incorrect and this person backed their statements by saying.....this use to be in the standard but was taken out......this was WRONG and had never been in any standard.

Another example coming from the judges training scheme.....is training judges have to attend shows then write a breed critiques, then have the critiques read and signed off by a Judge........but what was seen on the weekend was a trainee having blank critique sheets signed off, so they would write the critiques later. The whole point of this excerise is the mentoring, educating, correction and discussion with an experienced judge, which in this case wouldn't happen.....once again where's the judge accountability.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Showpony

[angelsun]

I think although many can say "all of the above" in most cases its a bit of this or that and in the end, no entry.

For me, my health was crappy this year so I think I've been to half a dozen shows all up. Tony's taken over the Pinschers mostly to get them through their titles. He is pretty much over Shepherd showing as it's discouraging to see roach backed, out of control dogs, being put up all the time. he's got a bum knee as well that continues to give him grief so it's not hard to stay out of that ring really.

I get frustrated when my dog shows well, but is ignored in the group after a judge gushes over her at breed making statements like "never seen one this nice" etc etc....and group goes to a face because the dog to be honest, is out of condition in many aspects. I don't bother entering many international judges because they have not got my breed there, nor have in many cases, ever seen my breed in person....why bother?

It's discouraging to know who will win the group/show, before the judges are even introduced on the day based on who's shown up (read: chased) Not saying the dogs aren't good....but they aren't the ONLY good dogs in the ring that day.....the others just don't have the $$ behind them to do all the advertising or jump around every weekend to shows.

I don't and haven't chased judges...ever....now I"m told that when I enter a show and a Canadian judge happens to be on the panel, I must be chasing them...or people figure if I DID win (which I've never really done much under any visiting judge to date) that it's simply because I'm Canadian and so are they....we know this DOES happen....hasn't happened to me....only a few have figured out who I am, simply because they don't expect to see me here.

Petrol prices, motel prices etc...all go towards deciding if I'll go to a show. Who's judging..of course that is part of the decision. In the end, it comes down to whether I have dogs to enter....and currently, we don't have much until we get a litter or two and some new ones to start out again.

[Gayle.]

My theory is hat it goes deeper than just the show scene. Across the country, there is a general lack of care or pride these days in pedigree dog ownership. It used to be a "badge of honour" to own an animal with a fine pedigree as a family pet, these days the dubious honour seems to belong to who can pay the most money for a generic looking mongrel puppy with a stupid made up game.

Dog showing is a fairly negative experience........it's not very friendly, there's not much excitement or appreciation from spectators, it's pretty bitchy and then there's face judging.............but I doubt any of that has changed in recent years, I expect it's always been like that.

Look closely at the pedigree dog world in general........the limit register, the purchases of puppies all wrapped and bound with red rape and legalese, the influx of designer dogs foisted on the public..........and these puppies ARE taking places in homes that would formerly have been occupied by pedigree dogs...........and you might see why dog shows aren't as popular as they used to be.

Edited October 19, 2011 by GayleK

[Rebanne]

no one has mentioned shift work, people work 24/7 these days in most industries, no more automatic weekends off. I have to book to get weekends off and was bold enough to request 3 out of 4 right now. Thank you Boss for giving them to me :D

I love my showing, I go to shows expecting nothing but to have a good time. It is my hobby, my time out of a busy stressful life to just sit around with my dogs. I rarely take notice of who is judging, I take more notice of the weather, but I do like showing under internationals as they are more likely to have seen multiples of my breed. But it doesn't really matter.

I haven't shown for most of this year due to breeding a litter, but the shows that I have been to, the other exhibitors I have sat near have all been nice, which is true for the majority, for all my short showing career, nearly 5 years now.

Yes it costs a fortune in petrol, especially now I am towing a larger trailer, but it's just a cost I factor in. I would be quite well off if I didn't have dogs but life would be pretty boring then.

[klink]

My theory is hat it goes deeper than just the show scene. Across the country, there is a general lack of care or pride these days in pedigree dog ownership. It used to be a "badge of honour" to own an animal with a fine pedigree as a family pet, these days the dubious honour seems to belong to who can pay the most money for a generic looking mongrel puppy with a stupid made up game.

Dog showing is a fairly negative experience........it's not very friendly, there's not much excitement or appreciation from spectators, it's pretty bitchy and then there's face judging.............but I doubt any of that has changed in recent years, I expect it's always been like that.

Look closely at the pedigree dog world in general........the limit register, the purchases of puppies all wrapped and bound with red rape and legalese, the influx of designer dogs foisted on the public..........and these puppies ARE taking places in homes that would formerly have been occupied by pedigree dogs...........and you might see why dog shows aren't as popular as they used to be.

Gaylek, I think your comments are spot on and they put another perpective on this topic. We all seem to be searching and digging from with in our group, and whilst we do have some causes internally your remarks address another much overlooked issue. Dont' you think that our canine bodies need to also look outside their hallowed little square and TRY something new instead of simply adding new regulations all the time for the all ready burdened members .

[wuffles]

Another thing to throw out there by someone who has never shown before...

I don't think that there are many younger people getting into showing their dogs. This would be for various reasons... time restraints (weekends are pretty highly coveted in my house seeing as are at work all week), expense, the difficulty in "starting out" and finding mentors. Even having to keep an entire dog is difficult these days. There also isn't a very positive attitude towards showing amongst younger people (actually most people in general these days) because it is seen as a popularity or beauty contest.

I do dog sports and there are not that many younger people involved in that either.

[Mandalay]

This is going well we all seem to be on the same pages of the book...

Just another aspect came to me via aPM is the fact the judge was simply not intersted in there dog at all, stated was "I think I must of only paid half price." other was "My young daughter didn't even get back into the ring for class and the judge had given the ribbon to the front person."

Now I can see why this would turn the young one's off the scene, I am not saying they should win but at least give them a go and encourage them to keep it up...

I stewarded for a judge and a young boy was showing his breed, no he didn't win but the judge took the time to talk to him and encouraged him to keep going....this little lad is now showing every week and with a big smile on his face

So although there is many problems here, maybe the biggest one starts with Canine Councils ?????

[Gayle.]

Bear in mind that there are plenty of other dog activities that are held each weekend all over Australia, that are not exclusive to pedigree dogs but whose numbers are increasing.

Herding is going gangbusters in a couple of states; agility and obedience seem to be very well represented; flyball and dances with dogs are gaining in popularity.

So it's not dog sports in general that are suffering a lack of numbers, it's pedigree dogs in particular.

[Mandalay]

Totally agree GayleK....

I opted out of the show ring for many years and did Obedience (& loved It)

There was not the cost as in the show scene either.....

In my area alone we have lost so many shows, closing down (mainly Ag's) but there is always a Kennel Club that offers lots of other ways to go with your dog....

[mr m]

I think it is expense and face judging, most hobbies are expensive so i dont mind paying for something i love doing and sometimes it can be a struggle. But its hard to justify paying for something that you no you have no chance at before you even enter.I have had one foot in the ring as the winner has been walking out many times. And judges gazing into another ring as i am showing my dog, I have payed to have my dog judged have i not. And nearly everyone knows who the winners are before the show starts. I have done a fair bit of winning but i have payed out a fortune to watch the people i know are going to win, and that i think is why people are getting into other types of dog sports and leaving the show ring.

[Libertybrook]

being on several KC and Ag show committees we have been discussing this subject a lot lately,

quite a few people have said they cant afford to take time off work, on a Friday or a Monday to show,

so will only do doubles,

I know several friends who send their dogs to show wih friends to be shown while they are at work,

people are worried they will lose their jobs if they constantly take time off for shows.

another is the costs of just getting to and staying a weekend or more is getting far more expensive,

I know when I have been away this year I have shared rooms with friends which brngs the costs down,

a bit.

also the costs of entries which have to rise to keep Kennel clubs & dog sections at Ag shows financially viable

we seem to be between a rock and a hard place.

We are working on getting better sponsorship for our KC's and local Ag shows to offer better prizes

whether that be Cash N Sash or actual Sash N prizes, its getting harder as business's that are also struggling

tend not be as forthcoming as they used to be with sponsorship & donations.

We are also working on getting a greater variety of Judges,

we are trying to get judges whom may only have one or a few groups,

and whom have never Judged out in the Western Region, and are willing to travel,

we have found that Judges who have never had Judging appointments or only a a couple of appointments seem to attract better entries as exhibitors will give an "unkown" or "new" judge a go

another quite common complaint from exhibitors is getting the same Judges over and over for GS's,

sorry but it cant be helped, there are only so many All Breeds Judge that can do GS's, so it is inevitable we have repeat appointments for GS's

we do try and limit them to one or two groups or officiating GS's only, :D

if it wasnt for our smaller KC clubs and Ag shows in our regional areas, as opposed to going to Newcastle, Sydney, or anywhere in the Sydney metro area, a lot of people would never show, or have never taken uo dog showing or Obedience etc,

[HugL]

I have only been around showing for 3 years and now my boy has his Ch title, I only drop him in certain shows. Main reasons are travel (I have recently moved), and other exhibitors within my breed. I always congratulate anyone who beats me regardless of whether I am handling my own or a friends' dog. I find it extremely rude not being congratulated by them on the odd occasion we win. I have tolerated being snubbed or ignored by these people but sheer rudeness at challenge and BOB??

I also have 12yo and 10yo daughters who desperately want to show. The last few times there has actually been junior handlers listed for the show they have been cancelled supposedly due to lack of numbers. The last time this occurred, I know of at least 4 kids who wanted to participate and the one before, 8 kids. How many do they need?? If these young kids aren't encouraged, where will the next generation come from?

I could fill another 3 pages with complaints about junior handler issues but won't bother. I'll just do what others here are doing - sign them up and send them straight into the ring. (At least I have met some great people with other breeds that have offered to help my daughters.)

[mr m]

I think it is expense and face judging, most hobbies are expensive so i dont mind paying for something i love doing and sometimes it can be a struggle. But its hard to justify paying for something that you no you have no chance at before you even enter.I have had one foot in the ring as the winner has been walking out many times. And judges gazing into another ring as i am showing my dog, I have payed to have my dog judged have i not. And nearly everyone knows who the winners are before the show starts. I have done a fair bit of winning but i have payed out a fortune to watch the people i know are going to win, and that i think is why people are getting into other types of dog sports and leaving the show ring.

It is not only local and interstate judges that face judge, i have been at shows with international judges and a breeder has sat with the judges for best in show while the other half was in the ring and when the other half wins they come out to the judges and kiss and cuddle them and state, we owe you a couple of bottles of wine do you like red or white.

And another who after winning talkes to the judges about how they will be in (what ever country judging next week) why dont you come with me.

And another who has the judges over for dinner that night. guess who one the next day.

[Sayreovi]

Bear in mind that there are plenty of other dog activities that are held each weekend all over Australia, that are not exclusive to pedigree dogs but whose numbers are increasing.

Herding is going gangbusters in a couple of states; agility and obedience seem to be very well represented; flyball and dances with dogs are gaining in popularity.

So it's not dog sports in general that are suffering a lack of numbers, it's pedigree dogs in particular.

I agree, for me personally once I title my girl I will rarely show, would much rather focus time and energy on a sport where what titles I achieve won't actually be looked down on and thought as 'easy' just because of the breed I own

[Roova]

Another comment from someone who doesn't show (and from one small perspective). My chosen breed is the French Bulldog and I can see it would be close to impossible to get into the showing scene without breaking the bank.

The average, pet, desexed FB is $3000 up. Most breeders do not sell entire dogs (for good reason) so it doesn't leave many options for someone who might be interested in showing.

If you did manage to live near your breeder and built a good relationship with them there might be more chance of them trusting you with an entire puppy but I'm not sure how much they would cost if a desexed pet is $3000+. It could probably eventually make a very limited showing group I would imagine?

If you did well showing wise and wanted another for breeding/showing purposes there's another $3000+. That type of money is not available to the average person as an initial outlay, so its easier to just not go down the showing route.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Roova