Why Is It So

[OSoSwift]

Wow the amount of Dobes has dropped off dramatically.

Was just thinking I helped handle at a smaller show in Feb, 5 or 6 Dobes all bred by the one person. Last time I showed my Dobe bitch which was around 8 years ago there was 5+ per class on many occasions even at small country shows.

[The Spotted Devil]

One other thing that stops me showing is my preference for working lines. We would get laughed out of the ring I can't see that accounting for a general loss of numbers of course but it's just something that affects my decisions.

[Jumabaar]

One other thing that stops me showing is my preference for working lines. We would get laughed out of the ring I can't see that accounting for a general loss of numbers of course but it's just something that affects my decisions.

I can in the long term- how many breeds have been distancing the gap even further in the past 20years between working and show lines. Not relevant to the ESS, but the Kelpie is an example.

[underfoot]

What seems to be putting some newbies off showing is they are scared of the big champ shows. In the past there were plenty of open shows were newbies could practice so to speak and could have a chance of winning a ribbon which in turn built their confidence. Even being experienced when I took a break from the ring to have some children I was scared coming back into the 'professional' championship ring against the professionals. Plus the bitching that went on does not teach our kids good sportsmanship but it is part of life as someone always needs to lose.

The old open shows seemed more friendly and helpful for many reasons (for the aspiring judges as well no bet).

[Ceilidh]

As people are going to show dogs in other people's names how do we make it easier for show secretaries when we ARE showing dogs that are in other people's names?

If the Owner name is different to the name on the envelope then, in red or green or something that stands out write the envelope name in brackets next to the Owner name.

eg. Owned by: SK Ball & MJ Driscoll (Trisven)

[luvmypoodles]

Hi everyone Im new to the forum and just want to say if anyone here wants to show I say go for it!!!! I have only been showing for over a year now and absolutely love it.I started completely terrified of making mistakes but learnt by asking lots of questions.I think its vital to stay out of the politics of it all by ignoring any bad comments or gossip.The most important thing is to concentrate on is your dog,not other people who have nothing better to do than put others down.They only do it to make their inferiorities feel better.Ive met lovely people who have been so helpful and encouraging and my life is richer for it.

[Dracdog]

The thing that I hear around the traps is that the controlling bodies don't do enough to promote showing. But from experience i found that alot of it has to do with peoples attitudes Both showers and breeders. The comments I have heard at shows made to newbies and others in general are enough to drive a lot of people away. Some of the comments I have heard are things like She only won cause she is a whore, He only one because he is a friend of the family, (to a newbie)That dog has no rigth to be here it is the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

Do you also realise how hard it is to get a dog on the main register to show even if you have been showing for a while? When I talk to friends and form my own experience trying to find a new show dog 70% of the breeders must be putting everything they breed on the limited register.

So what is the point of the ANKC spend millions on the promotion of shows ect if you are unable to buy a dog that can be shown. Come on people the reason numbers are declining is we are cutting our own throats.

[Jetpoint GSP]

I am about to show my pup for the first time. I have previously wanted to show/trial my dogs but have had no idea where to start. It's really very hard to get into as there aren't a lot of people out there to help or to say, sure have a go! I'm very lucky in that the owner of the stud dog I recently used has encouraged me enormously to take the leap and jump on in. She helped me with learning how to stack my dogs properly, what equipment i'd need, what to do, how to groom my dogs etc. Without her help there is NO WAY I would have decided to show. I recently went along to a show as a spectator and had a great time. However I did notice that so many competitors just run off after the winner is announced, hardly any (genuine!) congratulations to the winner. So much competition between breeders/exhibitors - I hate to think what's going to happen when I take my girls out!!! I've been part of the horse competitive world for a long time, I know how it works.

I also agree that it is almost impossible to get a dog on main register at times and those breeders who do sell their dogs on main register to 'newbies' are almost frowned upon. How on earth do they think they are going to get new blood and new numbers, or are they not wanted? Why don't breeders encourage their puppy owners to show, to do sports with their dogs? Show them how much fun it can be, offer to take them along to a show with you so they can see that it's not too threatening and can be fun?

I think a lot of the blame can be squarely placed at the feet of the greater dog community (and i'm not saying everyone because there are some really great people out there) by making it so hard to get a pedigree dog on main register and then completely shutting out those lucky enough to get one or alternatively ensuring that there is so much red tape that no one could possibly enjoy it. I very clearly remember when I was first looking for my first pedigree dog....main register.....you've got to be kidding..not to mention the absolutely EXORBITANT prices for main register dogs...don't even get me started on the differences in pricing between limited register and main register dogs.....

In saying all this, come hell or high water i'm going to get out and do some obedience trials and shows this year and enjoy it as much as possible. I love my girls and I want to take them out and have fun! I am also going to make sure that I keep encouraging my puppy owners to get involved (and i'm very lucky that lots of mine are already embarking on obedience, hunting etc.) and provide whatever guidancce and knowledge I can. Help from another breeder is the only thing that got me involved and I think if we all make a conscious effort to encourage others to get involved, teach them as much as we can and help them find their way we'll find more people get involved. I know i'm only one person who wanted to but didn't know how to get involved but I bet if I didn't know how there will be a LOT of others who don't either!

[Jetpoint GSP]

holy crap that ended up being a long post!

[ravensmyst00]

I've been involved in showing for nearly 7 years. While there has been pleasant experiences I can say the negative experiences are starting to out way the positive and as such I hardly show any more.

I'm at the point where I have to force myself to enter a show and then the morning of the show I have to find a really good reason to get myself out of bed. I used to love showing and its really sad that I have lost that passion because of the behavior of others.

[conztruct]

I agree that it can be hard to get started in showing. I was very lucky because I went to a lot of shows as a spectator (or strapper holding onto friend's dogs) so got to meet a lot of people before I was any threat and learn a lot of things, so when I started showing I had a great group of friends to help me and make the social side of the day so pleasant too.

I really enjoy showing but have to admit that if the social side of it was not so enjoyable, I don't think I'd do it. I guess the difficult thing with showing is that you've not got a level playing field in that you often have to compete against better, more experienced dogs, groomers, handlers, etc. Whilst this is the nature of the game, I can understand how this can be very daunting to the newbies. Add to that being able to socialise your dog and train them to deal with the show environment (which can be very hard to recreate).

I guess we can go on and on forever about the reasons why people don't show, stop showing, etc but I have found that most people stick with an activity while it is fun. Once the fun stops, interest follows. Maybe we just need to start working towards shows being a great social event as well as a competition.

[DogNerd]

As a newbie, I enjoy showing and Barney enjoys showing. It's a great day out for him and it's great training for him. I wrote a post before saying how I enjoy it but lately I've seen people who I thought were nice turn sour, negative and show unsportsmanlike behaviour. An offhand (or maybe not) remark made by someone whilst I was within a metre of them topped it off and helped me make the decision to take a break over these Summer months.

I'm never one to complain or make a big deal about things but I thought I'd add this experience here as I'm another who has been put off by other peoples behaviour.

You can say "You need thick skin to show/it's your fault for being sensitive etc" But I believe competition is no excuse for nastiness and to treat people like crap. I'm sure most of the people in this thread are nice and welcoming to newbies, but a great deal (maybe not in this thread) aren't. If you want new people in the rings then at least show politness and courtesy to people giving it a go.

[SparkyTansy]

As a newbie, I enjoy showing and Barney enjoys showing. It's a great day out for him and it's great training for him. I wrote a post before saying how I enjoy it but lately I've seen people who I thought were nice turn sour, negative and show unsportsmanlike behaviour. An offhand (or maybe not) remark made by someone whilst I was within a metre of them topped it off and helped me make the decision to take a break over these Summer months.

I'm never one to complain or make a big deal about things but I thought I'd add this experience here as I'm another who has been put off by other peoples behaviour.

You can say "You need thick skin to show/it's your fault for being sensitive etc" But I believe competition is no excuse for nastiness and to treat people like crap. I'm sure most of the people in this thread are nice and welcoming to newbies, but a great deal (maybe not in this thread) aren't. If you want new people in the rings then at least show politness and courtesy to people giving it a go.

Agree with this. A sport where the motto seems to be "you need a thick skin to survive" is pretty bad, imo, and shows that there is room for improvement. I don't care how many other sports where people have seen the same type of behaviour, it's no excuse for people to behave like they do. Honestly I think some people think that it's their right to say whatever they like "because if you can't hack it, you shouldn't do it".

Have a look at the numbers dropping and then check your own attitudes (and of course this isnt aimed at everyone but as usual the minority that stands out and makes the whole sport look bad).

[kosmology]

How to keep me as a newbie interested in showing, and enter the sport regardless of all the 'horror stories' I hear??

I tend to think there are alot of wankers in most facets of life. For instance - a lot of bitchiness and bullying at Uni, a lot of bitchiness and bullying at school, a lot of bitchiness and bullying in the workplace, etc etc, hell even a lot of bitchiness and bullying amongst some families!!

Why should the dog showing world be any different? In fact when I think about it, the bitchiness and bullying is pretty lame compared to many other arenas.

I suppose at least everyone involved in dog showing (I hope!) loves animals.

And any bitchiness and bullying coming my way? Well I'll just deal with it when/if it happens, but it won't put me off.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The people who are a problem don't care. Or if they do care about their image, they aren't going to change because of general criticism on the internet because they don't consider themselves part of the problem.

I have never said that you need a thick skin but I do think newbies and kids need good advice from seasoned competitors that puts the behaviour into perspective and empowers them to deal with it next time.

My reaction to someone not being all that fantastic to a newbie is to explain what I think is going on and some options for how they might choose to handle it.

I mean, presumably most of us also regularly do other things that require us to get on with and deal with people that we ordinarily wouldn't spit on if they were on fire (paid employment, kids activities, etc). Hobbies are no different.

[Diva]

I mean, presumably most of us also regularly do other things that require us to get on with and deal with people that we ordinarily wouldn't spit on if they were on fire (paid employment, kids activities, etc). Hobbies are no different.

That's true, but for me the difference is the incentives at play - I resolve/put up with/slap down crap at work I wouldn't bother engaging with in a hobby context, and I deal with a lot more boredom and croynism much more happily too. I won't do that for a hobby when there are so many other hobbies and amusements competing for my time and money. If a hobby or sport isn't enjoyable, engaging and fair I'll just walk away and go to one that is, quite likely to a different dog sport. The dogs are important enough to me to endure almost anything for - but the show ring isn't, not to me anyway. It has to be fun.

Personally, I think the main drivers of declining show numbers are more structural - restrictions on dog ownership, decline in interest in purebreeds, very busy lifestyles etc.

But recruitment and retention into the sport don't seem to get much attention. I think perhaps being a big fish in a small pool is good enough for most. And perhaps it is, I have no idea what the sustainable critical mass is for the sport and the strategy of getting the same few people to show the same dogs more times through things like the changes to the grand and supreme champion might be enough to keep it alive.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Diva

[Nancyk]

Just a different point of view for you all to think about/ comment on.

I have been trying to look at the big picture - not just conformation showing to see why the purebred dogworld is shrinking.

Looking at the ANKC statistics (all available on the ANKC website)

25 years ago in 1986 a total of 95,792 puppies were registered.

25 years later 2010 a total of 66,040 registered - this is a 32% reduction.

Therefore in my opinion this will flow on and effect show numbers.

In addition limited register was introduced in that time (and in my opinion has been largely abused since - as it was originally intended for puppies who do not meet the standard, or did not meet the standard well enough to breed) further reducing available purebreds.

Add that to things discussed here - i.e., face judging, return of favours, nastiness, fuel costs etc., and I suppose that explains it.

In my opinion we need to produce more purebred main register dogs and make them available to people without strings attached.

The ANKC has some statistics on their site which estimate ANKC registered puppies are about 20% of total puppies born each year. I personally believe from my research that it is more likely about 10% of all puppies being ANKC registered. So if you look at how many of these go on limited register you will see an ever decreasing amount of purebred registered dogs available for breeding.

We are turning people away and encouraging them into the "designer" mongrel dog market.

So how can we improve at shows to start - Obedience and Agility do seem to be going well and increasing in numbers.

Nothing can be done about fuel prices. But have you ever thought about what equipment you have for shows today compared to what you had 10-15-20-25 years ago?

Back in 1995 when we commenced showing Neapolitan Mastiffs we had a canopy on our existing 4wheel drive, an umbrella tent, two stakes, couple of towells, esky, water bowls for dogs. These days we have my vehicle purchased for ease of transporting dogs, a 6berth dual berth trailer with wardrobe (especially made to our specs), 3 different Gazebos including a 6x3m. Floor mats, 6 large size crates for shows - the list goes on.

Show entry fees - I know people complain about this, but compare the fees today with 10-15-20-25 years ago. The entry fees haven't even kept up with CPI - yet overall judging fees have increased (due to higher travel costs, accomodation), ribbons, sashes and stationary have all increased, as has groundhire, insurance etc.,

This is a large part of the reason why so many "ordinary" prizes occur.

I personally would be happy to receive only a Sash for a group or in show win and nothing else for shows with say under 500 entries. Larger shows might be able to consider cash instead of trophies?

Anyway just a few thoughts - would be delighted to hear opinions.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Nancyk

[SkySoaringMagpie]

That's true, but for me the difference is the incentives at play - I resolve/put up with/slap down crap at work I wouldn't bother engaging with in a hobby context, and I deal with a lot more boredom and croynism much more happily too. I won't do that for a hobby when there are so many other hobbies and amusements competing for my time and money.

I think part of the difficulty is that it's almost impossible to quantify for the purposes of discussing numbers in the show ring. It involves an emotional assessment that each individual makes over time. How much importance am I going to attach, and how much effort am I going to make? Today when I decide whether to get out bed? Next week when I decide whether to enter a show? Next month when I decide to take an obedience term instead? Next year when I decide to breed a litter?

The problem I see in these threads is not people deciding that for now or forever it's not for them - lots of good reasons about dog limits, money, time, family demands and everything else not to keep going. It bothers me when people say that decision is all down to what a***holes are doing, or worse, a single a***hole on a single day. It gives them an awful lot of power.

I guess I also see it primarily as a competitive sport so that element of smoke and mirrors and toe-to-toe behaviour is always going to be there from people who think it matters as much or more than substance. I don't like that aspect or enjoy it - I know some people do. I do enjoy finding ways to neutralise it, perhaps the key is to already have an interest in watching the animals in the zoo. However, I do respect that not everyone finds poo flinging interesting.

[Faolmor]

As a newbie, I enjoy showing and Barney enjoys showing. It's a great day out for him and it's great training for him. I wrote a post before saying how I enjoy it but lately I've seen people who I thought were nice turn sour, negative and show unsportsmanlike behaviour. An offhand (or maybe not) remark made by someone whilst I was within a metre of them topped it off and helped me make the decision to take a break over these Summer months.

I'm never one to complain or make a big deal about things but I thought I'd add this experience here as I'm another who has been put off by other peoples behaviour.

You can say "You need thick skin to show/it's your fault for being sensitive etc" But I believe competition is no excuse for nastiness and to treat people like crap. I'm sure most of the people in this thread are nice and welcoming to newbies, but a great deal (maybe not in this thread) aren't. If you want new people in the rings then at least show politness and courtesy to people giving it a go.

Agree with this. A sport where the motto seems to be "you need a thick skin to survive" is pretty bad, imo, and shows that there is room for improvement. I don't care how many other sports where people have seen the same type of behaviour, it's no excuse for people to behave like they do. Honestly I think some people think that it's their right to say whatever they like "because if you can't hack it, you shouldn't do it".

Have a look at the numbers dropping and then check your own attitudes (and of course this isnt aimed at everyone but as usual the minority that stands out and makes the whole sport look bad).

Unless, of course, some people are happy that the numbers are dropping... ;)

Oh no. Did the cynic in me just take over again?? *cough*

[Diva]

However, I do respect that not everyone finds poo flinging interesting.

PSML. It's interesting the first time, but after that poo is just poo, LOL.

I guess part of my point is that there are so many other things to do, even with the dogs, that it's very easy to move on to something more fun or more meaningful. Probably that does give the bullies and the fakers a lot of power as they can make it 'not fun' very quickly, there is very little consequence for bad behaviour in reality, and all the factors that others have mentioned which affect judging quality have already made it less than meaningful. The social time around the ring with friends is mostly what showing has going for it. That's is certainly something good, but I am not sure it's enough given all the other pressures. It has the feel of being a very old fashioned and somewhat eccentric sport, with noone really looking out for its future. Just mho.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Diva