Why Is It So

[Rebanne]

Shows, especially in smaller and regional areas are already failing to attract sufficient numbers to make them financially viable which means that club members either have to chip in personally or if they're lucky enough secure some sponsorship (difficult) - those people who are burning themselves out are providing the extra entries after show secretaries literally beg people to enter because they are facing a massive loss (eg Caboolture show in this Show section seeking entries and it's in a metropolitan area where it's a 50k drive for Brisbane people - only 150 by the original advertised date).

you can send in an entry without actually attending. I just call it a donation. I send away to maybe 3 or 4 shows a year in this way. Helps keep them going so I have choices still next year. eg I am going to Echuica this weekend, Henty is on so I sent them a doantion. Next year might be in reverse.

[Rebanne]

But there was one DOLer, who started showing her dog about the same time as me, in the same group, and we'd often see each other at shows. And every single time, she'd be sitting on her own, near the rest of the (large) group of people showing her breed and not once did anyone speak to her let alone offer to help her out, or include her in a conversation. She stopped showing her dog before he was a year old, but to her credit she gave it a red hot go, week after week, but it can't have been a fun day out for her.

so you invited her to come sit with you? You don't have to sit with people from the same breed, not even the same group. When everyone turns up from our friendship group there are at least 3 different groups represented by the dogs, we have had dogs from 5 different groups under our tent city It's only very recently I have had the pleasure of sitting/showing with someone who owns the same breed as me.

[Gayle.]

We chatted regularly and sat near each other but it was a shame that no one from her breed made any effort to befriend her and include her as she was very clearly new to the show scene. While I realise you don't *need* to sit with people who show the same breed, it's nice if they make some effort to make newcomers feel welcome, as the people in my breed did with me.

There are some things that only those who have the same breed can show you or talk about with you, and they are quite obviously your best source of info. If people don't make an effort with newcomers, they can't expect they'll stick around for long and they really have no cause for complaint about the dog show scene not attracting people. One person who isn't made to feel welcome can easily influence other people to not even bother going to a show, let Aline taking it up as a hobby.

[Trisven13]

In the end, I did this :rolleyes: and this and walked away and thought "Faaaark! Who's confused now??? And these are the people who organise the shows I spend my hard earned money entering."

I wonder what they do when people show dogs they don't own. And expect the numbers to go to the person who'll be showing the dog, not the owner. That must really confuse them, or maybe they just don't bother with sending them anywhere.

OK, off topic, just a funny little story about confused people.

not a funny little story at all but a nasty little story. As a first time show secretary last year I can tell you it's not bloody easy sorting out owners/handlers/payers etc whent there may be 3 or more different names to be sorted out for one dog entry. There is the owner on the entry form, the envelope is addressed to someone else and the cheque is signed by yet another person. Multiple that by quite a few and it's a massive headache. In one case I had about 4 different breeds of dogs, all owned by different people, with the numbers going to someone else and the yes the cheque was signed by yet another person.

It might be your hard earned money but it's the volunteers helping out at ground level who pay in blood, sweat and tears. Instead of making fun of them maybe you could help out instead and then you'll find out just what a good job they do.

Obviously I haven't helped out at a local show as yet (though I have offered) but I suppose I have always thought that when the entry came in it would be dealt with as it came in, if that makes any sense? I have shown dogs before that weren't in my name, sent off with a money order and an envelope addressed to me and I haven't considered that it would be a problem as I have put them all together. I've not thought about them being separated once they arrive. As people are going to show dogs in other people's names how do we make it easier for show secretaries when we ARE showing dogs that are in other people's names?

[Trisven13]

We chatted regularly and sat near each other but it was a shame that no one from her breed made any effort to befriend her and include her as she was very clearly new to the show scene. While I realise you don't *need* to sit with people who show the same breed, it's nice if they make some effort to make newcomers feel welcome, as the people in my breed did with me.

There are some things that only those who have the same breed can show you or talk about with you, and they are quite obviously your best source of info. If people don't make an effort with newcomers, they can't expect they'll stick around for long and they really have no cause for complaint about the dog show scene not attracting people. One person who isn't made to feel welcome can easily influence other people to not even bother going to a show, let Aline taking it up as a hobby.

I very rarely, like Rebanne, have someone sitting near me who is showing the same breed. I find that more often than not it is the newbies who stick together and/or welcome other newbies - well at least that is what we all did.

Rebanne, myself, Tibbiemax and Rugerrun all started showing in this general area around the same time so we sat together. Some of us knew other people through show training and they were always helpful and welcoming and then we just always talked to other people in our group. This last weekend I was sitting with two other ladies who show in my group, one with a standard long dachy, the other with basenji's - I met a lovely new lady with a Black Russell Terrier and another newbie with an ACD. I had a blast. :D I have decided that there is no point blaming others - I go out of my way to be friendly and to meet people, I do my best to remember their names and say hello the next times I see them. There are DEFINITELY some people who are rude, who don't chat etc etc but there are just as many who are welcoming - ignore the turds I say

Edited November 3, 2011 by Trisven13

[DogNerd]

I'm new to showing and I've found it a bit hard, my dogs breeder is in NSW so we don't really have that support at shows. I'm also incredibly shy so that made it even harder to talk to people and get the help I needed! I'm lucky though as my dad is a chatterbox who'll strike up a conversation regardless of whether the other person is interested in talking to him :rolleyes: So I just bring him along to shows :D

I've had some not so nice things said to me, but we've continued going and made friends in the breed and I love going to shows now. I'm sure a person who isn't used to that wouldn't have, though.

Maybe the shows need to be advertised more, where it is, what time, and what it's about. I know that costs money, but if we could reach the average person maybe there would be more interest? (Sorry if this is already done)

We once went to an ag show where the dog rings were set up quite a fair bit away from the main area, I understand this could have been for the safety of the dogs etc but that means people have to make the effort to walk the distance to see the dogs. I don't think some people would do that, and if it had been closer there would have been more people coming to see them.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think part of the problem is that you can't really write an honest guide for newbies without being accused of being negative about the sport. It's the same for all sports tho', anywhere you have competition, you won't necessarily find your best friends. It's not just show world.

Re friendships, agree with Tris and the others. It's not unheard of to find a nice exhibitor in the same breed with a willingness to support a newbie who doesn't have a dog of their breeding. Even so, it's likely to be a different sort of relationship to the sitting around sharing picnics and chatting sort of friendships among equals and the newbie should not be naive about that. That's why the suggestion upthread to hang out with other newbies is a really good idea.

I am pretty sure that if a newbie posts here and says "hi, I'm new and I'm going to X show, is anyone going to be there" people will reply and say to look out for them and say hi. I like the "bring chatty Dad" strategy too dognerd! I don't think the newbie should go into it relying on the breed fancy to do it.

FWIW, I do chat to new people in my breed at shows no matter what prefix they are showing, but it's usually only while waiting to go in and I know perfectly well, knowing who the breeders of their dogs are, that any friendship across certain breeding factions has no real future, at least not now. That doesn't make all show people evil, it just means that people's programs come first and most people are not astute, personable and diplomatic enough to win universal friendship and admiration while winning the game in their breed. Some appear to be, but exceptions don't disprove the general rule. I am going to be polite and friendly but I am also going to keep a certain distance and be careful what I say to a bright eyed newbie who has a dog from someone who can't stand the person who bred my dogs. Do I wish everyone was more wise and mature, particularly some of our elders? Yes, but they're usually not and that's human nature, not dog showing. An ability to breed great dogs doesn't always come with top personal skills and that's OK.

The general level of snottiness varies according to location. In my experience, it can be a lot snottier in the capital cities than it is at the rural shows. Nek, if you go with LOTG or another DOLer you're automatically in a snot free zone :D

As a show sec, there is a happy medium when it comes to dealing with entries and a snotty note is almost never the right way to deal with it. Yes we're volunteers, but the club's image depends on us being professional.

Judge's training nights, open shows, setting up critiques etc are often fraught. There is an art to organising them which I don't claim to have acquired after a baptism of fire earlier this year. It is sad for those people who showed up and were ignored, I do think experienced show people need to think carefully about involving new people in it unless they have the time and energy to protect and guide them through putting the whole process in context. So rather than a general call for dogs, perhaps people should be targetting the dogs they want there - and yes, I know that's fraught too, "i wasn't invited, it's a conspiracy etc ".

[yarracully]

This would only cause more people to turn away from showing altogether. Why?

If there are less shows in your area would you honestly keep showing or would you look for something else to do as a hobby. Well yes! I'm prepared to travel, I have competitive dogs that are capable of winning challenges so if there were a limited number of shows where CH points were available of course I'd go to them because I'm competing for the points. It would make me work harder with my dogs to have them in awesome condition and ready for these big events instead of just relying on the fact that if I go out to whoop whoop with 75 entries for their Ag show I'll be unlucky if I strike another of my breed.And I too am prepared to travel. In fact with only three shows a year locally I don't have a lot of choice. Now while in some areas of this wide brown land there may be more shows more often that is not the case everywhere. we have just finished our last show for the year. Our next is in April. Cutting back the number of shows as you mentioned would mean those out this way would simply say its not worth doing any at all.

We only have three shows a year here. At that rate it is hard to even justify doing these shows. Why is it difficult to justify doing shows in your local area?I'm saying that if we cut back the number of shows I could not justify showing at all. In order to maintain interest in showing we need more shows in our area. If we cut from three back to only two I could not justify the effort required to continue showing. I would no doubt find another interest which I could enjoy regularly and then you add to the current trend of numbers dropping. No doubt there are others that are also on the edge of leaving the show scene and cutting back the chance to show adds to this trend

In order to stay interested we travel away a bit for shows. If we didn't travel then I wouldn't even bother with showing at all. Local shows simply arent enough to justify. Now while that may not be the situation in other areas that is how it is here. Fair enough but having less shows doesn't mean that you don't have to travel to them. If you're saying the travelling is an enjoyable part of showing, there wouldn't be anything stopping you from travelling with your dogs just for a holiday rather than a show (?) Ahh the luxury of a holiday. that would be nice. Reality check. Not everyone gets the chance to have holidays. As for the travelling if the number of shows were to be cut then there would be less to travel too and as likely as not further to travel. As an example the nearest non-local show in our state is 300 k's away. This club only holds one show a year. It is currently struggling. If it were to be decided that this show is one to be cut, the next nearest show in our state is 750k's away. I don't plan on driving that distance after a day at work on Friday and then again on Sunday Night to get back for work on Monday. Especially with the nocturnal wildlife we have it is too dangerous for humans and dogs alike. So again less shows means more would give away showing

If people are feeling "burnt out" then they should simply give themselves a break. Why do we have to lose a few shows simply because some people cant be responsible and miss a few shows of their own accord. So even if numbers are falling at shows people should have a break - isn't that encouraging decreasing numbers at shows? In my area I know a lot of people who will put entries and travel to shows even when they don't really feel like because there are low entries and they want to support the small clubs here, in fact many almost consider it an obligation....if they didn't have the personally appointed obligation of attending a great number of shows, then it would be less tiresome That is their choice as I said before who is holding a gun to their head? They choose to make it tiresome for themselves. But again why should others have to miss out or have shows cut because some people make these decisions

I see no reason why a local show should be cancelled because some one else is burnt out. No one holds a gun to their head and forces them to enter every show thats on. They choose to enter the show. If they want a break they can have one, but not at the expense of others that want to show.

I'm not saying that all local shows should be cancelled just the number of them reduced. I can only speak for my area in Qld which ranges from about Gympie I think up to around Mackay - the suggestion I'm proposing is that rather than all the clubs in the area hold a minimum of 3-4 champ shows a year they maybe be given 1 each which would add up to about 12-15. Of course there should still be an even distribution in different locations so nobody is disadvantaged.

As I said just a suggestion I came up with from observations and listening to discussions at shows. I really like the English system where there are limited shows at which CH points can be obtained although their CH system is different I think and you have to win a certain number of challenges - I'm not absolutely sure on that..... but it would mean that to get a CH title you would more than likely have to compete against the best to achieve thereby putting some prestige to it and qualifying it as an award earned by beating competition instead of driving far enough to avoid it.The biggest issue with using the english system here is that england is nowhere near as big as Australia. We have sheep and cattle stations bigger than most european countries. What we need is an Australian system.

Sorry but I just don't agree with your idea of cutting back the number of shows. At least not as it stands. Perhaps with some more thought but as you have already mentioned it I don't see it working in fact I only see it making the decline greater.

I don't agree with you at all, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Shows, especially in smaller and regional areas are already failing to attract sufficient numbers to make them financially viable which means that club members either have to chip in personally or if they're lucky enough secure some sponsorship (difficult) - those people who are burning themselves out are providing the extra entries after show secretaries literally beg people to enter because they are facing a massive loss (eg Caboolture show in this Show section seeking entries and it's in a metropolitan area where it's a 50k drive for Brisbane people - only 150 by the original advertised date).

Declining entries are here already with out system of a multitude of shows and at a point where it's really only the committed people showing anyway. Think of it this way - there are so many shows on throughout the year (yes my minimum travel out of my local area is mostly 300k minimum too), where CH points are available. If the number where the CH points were limited it would not only place more value on the CH title but would increase entries at these eligible shows. It's a juggling act - is it better to have 3 shows or one show with 3 times the entry? It depends on perspective - yours is that you'd rather have the 3 shows, the alternative is greater participation and less expense (time and money) having one show. Since the question was about the declining numbers at shows, the latter is the perspective I have taken.

Sorry but you're making an assumption that the decision you'd make in that situation is what everyone else would do. There are lots of people who don't show now because they don't see any value in the CH title because anyone can pretty much get one by going to shows all over if they have to - maybe a lot of those people would join the show scene again if there was a little prestige attached to it. That would be an assumption and not a fact, but every bit as valid as your assumption. Too much of something makes people complacent, reduce supply and it makes it desirable (for most anyway).

And another reason many are no longer showing is because they have found other interests that they can participate in on a regular basis. Such that where they may have had three shows per year they now have only one (using your example) in the meantime they have moved to other interests and so no longer show. Once someone turns away from the showring it is almost impossible to get them to come back.

Hence my reason for my perspective. If you cut the number of shows there is more reason for people to move onto other interests and therefore leave the ring and not return. I know of a few in my area that used to show when we used to have four shows a year. They still have their dogs. But when there are no shows they got involved in other interests and now their dogs spend all their time on the couch. WHen asked why they don't show they have said they couldn't be bothered only showing a few times a year. They rather do their other interest which they can do every weekend or whatever it is.

You may think of it as an assumption. My view point is based on what I have seen in other sports. There are many instances where participation has dropped (Not just in showing) and its because of lack of interest. And this is created from lack of opportunity. Its the same pattern. Locally a womens softball comp here is under threat as they can't get enough teams. They are struggling to get two teams together. WHen you speak to some of the former players its the same story. During the break many got involved in other things and now they are no longer interested in going back. Cutting the number of shows would create the same problem.

If Caboolture is struggling to get entries within Brisbane this tells me there could be another reason why people are not entering. What other shows are on at the same time and how close are they. Could it be that people are too busy?

I'll give you a reason why some people may not have entered Caboolture. I don't know if QLD has a heat policy. Most other states do. At our recent show many people did not enter as they didn't want to take a chance on the weather being too hot and the heat policy invoked. This would have meant that they would lose their entry money and travelled here for nothing. More expense many can't afford to lose.

Might seem ridiculous but can you afford to travel 500 or 600 k's and then have a show canceled and you lose your entry fee as well as what it cost to get there. The day before our show our temp was 1 degree off the point at which the hot weather policy kicks in. On the actual show day it was much cooler. But we had a number of people that had entered ring up on the friday and withdraw their dogs as they were not going to travel here with hot temps around.

Cutting the number of shows isn't going to prevent that.

Since this topic has started I have contacted many I know that are not on this list and mostly they all come back with costs being a deciding factor in when and where they show. Its the same with me, closely followed by the time of year.

I still feel that reducing the number of shows isn't the answer. We have already had a few clubs fold and shows have been lost as a result but the numbers are still declining.

If reducing the number of shows is to work then the folding of the clubs and reductions of shows we have already had over the last ten years should have had an affect on the decline. Yet the decline continues. So we need to look elsewhere

[Shaar]

Reducing the number of shows won't help, we don't have a show every weekend here in Tasmania as it is and entries have declined.

Another point I thought of is better facilities... I know with the clubs budgets it's just not possible but making the grounds nicer may attract a bigger draw card.

For the Tassie people, remember how wonderful Elphin Showground was... Indoor rings, big benching area, grandstands and the best part, indoor canteen with full glass front to watch the judging. Now we have a paddock and a toilet.

[SparkyTansy]

I think that the sheer number of people who are leaving the sport, combined with the lack of people starting out is a major contributing factor. There are many reasons why people are leaving, but perhaps we should address why there are not new people coming in. Is it public opinion, and the damage that public opinions and exposure has done to the purebred dog world in the last few years? I know that many attitudes I come across when i tell people I show and breed purebred dogs is that they think it is elitest, that purebred dogs are untouchable for the "average" person, or perhaps they do not wish to be seen as a purebred snob. Despite the benefits of purebreeds, the health testing, the care and love we put into our breeds, we are still breeding purebred dogs, and while many know that it is not as elitist as it sounds, the general public as a whole still genuinely believe that purebreds are not easy to access. Promoting our breeds on a large scale is the way forward. Remove the focus from the reducing numbers in the show ring, and focus on getting our breeds out there in a positive light to the GP. Perhaps that will increase the interest, the demand, and the understanding, and bring numbers back to our dog shows.

[smacka]

Face judging, ever escalating cost, lack of accountabilty of the ''in crowd'' together with no real vehicle for the voices of the great unwashed to be heard, or listened to.

Mix well with aging exhibitors & you have the answer.

the oldies slowly fade away, the youngies wont cop the corruption & find something else to suit their style.

[Gayle.]

Obviously I haven't helped out at a local show as yet (though I have offered) but I suppose I have always thought that when the entry came in it would be dealt with as it came in, if that makes any sense? I have shown dogs before that weren't in my name, sent off with a money order and an envelope addressed to me and I haven't considered that it would be a problem as I have put them all together. I've not thought about them being separated once they arrive. As people are going to show dogs in other people's names how do we make it easier for show secretaries when we ARE showing dogs that are in other people's names?

If I enter that particular show again next year, I'll just staple the lot together, that way they can't get confused. Entry form, cheque and reply paid envelope, then they'll know that the number for that dog (or those dogs if I'm showing more than one) on that particular entry form needs to be returned in that particular envelope which will be addressed to me, because I need the numbers not anyone else who might be listed on the entry form. Problem solved.

[poocow]

Obviously I haven't helped out at a local show as yet (though I have offered) but I suppose I have always thought that when the entry came in it would be dealt with as it came in, if that makes any sense? I have shown dogs before that weren't in my name, sent off with a money order and an envelope addressed to me and I haven't considered that it would be a problem as I have put them all together. I've not thought about them being separated once they arrive. As people are going to show dogs in other people's names how do we make it easier for show secretaries when we ARE showing dogs that are in other people's names?

If I enter that particular show again next year, I'll just staple the lot together, that way they can't get confused. Entry form, cheque and reply paid envelope, then they'll know that the number for that dog (or those dogs if I'm showing more than one) on that particular entry form needs to be returned in that particular envelope which will be addressed to me, because I need the numbers not anyone else who might be listed on the entry form. Problem solved.

Show secretaries specifically ask you not to staple them so I wouldn't do that!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If I enter that particular show again next year, I'll just staple the lot together, that way they can't get confused. Entry form, cheque and reply paid envelope, then they'll know that the number for that dog (or those dogs if I'm showing more than one) on that particular entry form needs to be returned in that particular envelope which will be addressed to me, because I need the numbers not anyone else who might be listed on the entry form. Problem solved.

As poocow says, you'll definitely get another note from someone if you use staples. When I was entering a dog in a different name I just put him on the back of the SAE, ie , "IW 3" which gives the envelope stuffer some help to find the right envelope for the stray Irish Wolfhound Puppy.

Edited to explain what the 3 meant.

Edited November 4, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Gayle.]

If I enter that particular show again next year, I'll just staple the lot together, that way they can't get confused. Entry form, cheque and reply paid envelope, then they'll know that the number for that dog (or those dogs if I'm showing more than one) on that particular entry form needs to be returned in that particular envelope which will be addressed to me, because I need the numbers not anyone else who might be listed on the entry form. Problem solved.

As poocow says, you'll definitely get another note from someone if you use staples. When I was entering a dog in a different name I just put him on the back of the SAE, ie , "IW 3" which gives the envelope stuffer some help to find the right envelope for the stray Irish Wolfhound.

He wasn't entered in another name.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If I enter that particular show again next year, I'll just staple the lot together, that way they can't get confused. Entry form, cheque and reply paid envelope, then they'll know that the number for that dog (or those dogs if I'm showing more than one) on that particular entry form needs to be returned in that particular envelope which will be addressed to me, because I need the numbers not anyone else who might be listed on the entry form. Problem solved.

As poocow says, you'll definitely get another note from someone if you use staples. When I was entering a dog in a different name I just put him on the back of the SAE, ie , "IW 3" which gives the envelope stuffer some help to find the right envelope for the stray Irish Wolfhound.

He wasn't entered in another name.

Well, as I mentioned upthread, I think snotty notes aren't a good idea anyway - just trying to help you avoid another one.

FWIW, based on what you wrote, I have no idea why they got upset about it in the first place.

[OSoSwift]

There are nasty people everywhere, just ignore them and go on your way.

I find that the average Joe Public see's purebred dogs as elitist and snobby.

And me weird for wanting to do it. Luckily I don't really care about that

[german_shep_fan]

personally, as an outsider who considered showing with her dogs, its the atmosphere. I have been a few times, you try and ask questions or just watch and there are so many sour faces. It feels like if you're not part of the 'in' crowd you're not welcome or encouraged. Such a shame really that so many seem to see it as a threat instead of something to encourage and more good dogs being perpetuated and shown publically.

I know what you mean! I was turned off even just going to watch the GSDs a few yrs ago as i rang up the club and talked to a person who will remain nameless. Said person got legit shitty at me when i asked when the old style sheps would be shown. I got a short and curt "they are not shown in this show, they don't even show them at the nationals" and then she hung up on me!

I thought well if thats the attitude you want to take with the younger ppl who are involved in the breed then you can go get stuffed! lol

[Kahnazhu]

Hi All!

As a newbie to the Pedigree world, I too am going to put my 2 cents in :D

My husband and I would like to enter the show world, but to be honest, it's quite intimidating! We looked up our particular breed and saw that there was a show on at Bulla that weekend (wasn't the weather terrible!). All it said, was starts 9am. Also I found the website to be lacking! Nowhere on there is something that says "New Members Welcome" or "For further information, please contact..." I don't even know who to contact about becoming a member.

My parents showed Rotties years ago, and I remember the show world being very different. I don't even know where to start, how to train etc! I think I'll just stick to trawling DOL :D While the breeder has been helpful, they are a looong way away which makes it difficult.

Anyway that's my whinge ;) we may just need to go to a few more shows and see how we go.

[OSoSwift]

Where are you? What breed do you have? I am sure there will be a lovely DOLer who would help you