Why Is It So

[Waggy]

Its probably a case of all of the above sometimes!

Personally I have backed off abit, I used to show nearly every weekend, but I have now learnt that its a waste of my time and money entering whatever shows going when I know what the judge is going to do before I even get there. I have to be pretty careful about where and who I show under.

I have had a few cases of nastiness directed at me and it sucks that people can be that way!

I totally agree with your opinion. I used to enjoy the showing too but have cut down the shows i go to due to the reasons you have mentioned. I also found that once you dare win again a more established exhibitor the nastiness begins!!

[SparkyTansy]

my husband feels that the judging and showing has lost its way as a breeder/exhibitor the reason why you breed and show are to improve the breed if possible, then you take what you have breed to a dog show to show what you have breed and to see how you stack up to others, and to the breed standard, and to socialize with other breeders to learn and develop more about the breed, as you never stop learning but when dogs win due to whose holding the lead or how the dog was handled, makes you think do i breed to what the judges want ,or do i stick to the breed standard ,thats where the judges need to really know there standard and judge fairly as if they are not careful people will ask them selves do i breed to the judges standard or do i stick to the actually breed standard as people do get kennel blind as then when you lose to a better dog (been judged fairly ) you can then look and learn to breed a better dog next time thats how you improve the breed thats why we enjoy the specialty shows as we get a critique on the dogs (feed back from the judge )and the feed back you get from others is very helpful as we are all interested in the same thing BREEDING BETTER DOGS let me ask you this as well for some breeds it is near impossible to win a best in show due to the breed of a dog which is sad for instance how often has a bull terrier won a best in show at a all breeds

We had a huge winning BT in WA that won many best in shows (20 according to his profile). He was well known around every group and everyone loved him. He stood out as one of those once in a lifetime dogs.

[Libertybrook]

I found a couple of catalogues from a local allbreeds/Obedience double show held here out west from 2001 & 2002,

it was interesting to read, not only the numbers entered more than 650 a day in the conformation section alone not including the obedience, now we are lucky to get 350 a day.....

looking at the names of exhibitors and Prefixes, there are so many great dogs that have since passed on,

but what was telling were the exhibitors that no longer show, and the prefixes that have

disappeared as well in 10 years ,

Some could be they retired due to age and had no one to pass on the mantle to, but sadly for some because they

were so disheartened with the whole showing scene and what is had become, especially in their chosen breed,

back then a 25 point Challenge for a popular breed like Border Collies was common up here, let alone a 25pt BOB, now we are lucky to get 15pt BOB up this way.

ok so how do we fix it ? there has been plenty of Judge bashing touted on here, surely it cant be all blamed on them, o like the idea of critiques, and full explanations when dogs are nil awarded

so what can show committees do to help remedy the situation ??? any suggestions for upcoming shows, ideas or incentives to make showing more inviting ???

Edited October 21, 2011 by Libertybrook

[Gayle.]

To be honest, while I think your heart is in the right place regarding making shows more interesting or inviting, I don't think that's the place to start. While it will be nice for people who already attend the shows to have extra attractions or different judges or bells and whistles, you'll be preaching to the converted.

It has to start outside of the show ring, it needs to be a concerted effort by breeders, show people, registries, breed clubs and even pet owners of pedigree dogs to start banging the drum for quality pedigree dogs. Get people back to wanting to own a pedigree dog and be proud of it. Be proud of what you're breeding and selling, encourage people to want to breed their own puppies and show dogs they've bred.

It took about 15 years for the "designer" dog to all but kill off the pedigree dog pride and they had ONE avenue.......television. And mostly one voice doing it. Turn the tide the other way, someone somewhere needs to get the ball rolling and get the word out the pedigree dogs ARE BETTER PETS! And the show entries will rise of their own accord because once people have quality pets, a lot of them want to do something with them. And shows are a good place to start.

[Gayle.]

Didn't a bull terrier (tri colour) win at Crufts or Westminster a few years back?

[alpha bet]

One of the big reasons showing has fallen away that many would not even think of.....

From my experience, back in the 70's and 80's (in Victoria) - many dog shows and trials where held in local public parks - Box Hill, Lilydale, Croydon, Heidelberg, Whittlesea were some of the metro venues that I remember watching the dogs. The general public were used to seeing the dogs on display and would wander over after the kids footy match and chat to showies about the different breeds.

Then we had the KCC park and to help finance this venue all metro shows had to be held at KCC Park or at the Showgrounds. We have therefore cut off a regular avenue to the general public - it is unlikely that many will travel to KCC Park or Bulla Grounds. Nowdays the only metropolitan venue where the public can see dog is at the Royal Show.

[pie]

Alpha Bet I think that's also true in Perth, most shows are at our K9 grounds and although it has a sign saying public is welcome it does not look like a welcoming place at all

[dotdashdot]

Maybe I'm an odd one. I'm 20 and just getting into showing. I guess you could say I'm not entirely new, my parents co-owned a lab bitch (and still do but she's a "pet" now) and she was shown a few times without success - but I still experienced the show world and understood a little (I was 10 at the time)

Cleo arrived in June, having originally been destined for a show home, but now seeking a pet home. We had NO plans to show her at first but after a while I was like..."Hey she looks pretty good", she's very spotty (even for a dal) but her conformation is awesome (I think).

We went along to a local show, there are very few in this regional town, and met a LOVELY dally owner who was so very kind and gave me fantastic pointers. She introduced me to the stewardess and got me to join the kennel club etc. By this time I was already a member of DogsNSW (hence how I knew about the show)

Also, I've been in regular contact with a breeder whom we were going to get a pup off but the timing was off, she has been SO helpful in every single way and I can now call her a friend :D

My fiance is very supportive of our new hobby but I must say that now the most restrictive aspects will be 1. Money, 2. Travelling, 3. getting time off work!

1-we are now budgeting for a wedding next year..and maybe a wedding gift of a 2nd dally =] We were also looking at getting a new car for showing.

2-Coffs Harbour isn't that close to a lot unless we travel to the NSW/QLD border or to Newcastle. Our first show together will be at Dorrigo in 5 weeks time.

3 - time off work means sacrificing money, its a vicious cycle and in my job, weekends are the busiest time (and worth more money to work)

So everyone I've met so far has been lovely, I hope the next part of my showing career, the actual showing bit, goes just as well. I would love to see more young people doing it but my workmates just dont get it I hope to breed down the track with a bit of success etc and will hopefully get my family into it ;)

[SparkyTansy]

Alpha Bet I think that's also true in Perth, most shows are at our K9 grounds and although it has a sign saying public is welcome it does not look like a welcoming place at all

They also changed the area so that the one place people could sit and watch the rings now has only 3 or 4 benches that are set so far back you can't really see much. I spend many a dog show when i was much younger on those steps, watching all the dogs in awe, long before I ever got into showing dogs myself.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I don't have a "show dog", but I would like to get a dog that I could show. But, getting a dog that I could own outright (not co-own) is so difficult. I'm not really keen on co-own, but most breeders of my breed will only consider co-owns with people who aren't already in "show world".

Also, I have to be honest, when I was looking for my current dog I went to shows to try and meet breeders and see their dogs and develop any sort of communication/relationship. It was not a particularly pleasant experience. There were literally 2 that would speak to me and give me any advice about pupppy purchasing. And the shows I have been to since haven't really been particularly positive (mainly due to the comments I hear people making about other dogs - observations based on the breed standard are one thing but downright nastiness is another).

A friend of mine is currently showing her puppy, she knows that it isn't going to get a BOB. But I do feel sorry for her when she tells me stories of the other exhibitors coming up to her and telling her everything that is wrong with her pup, and I think 2 judges have pretty much said to why even bother entering. She just wants to have a good time with her pup and would like some good feedback on her - not just everything that is wrong.

However, I'm still investigating my options and would like to try my hand at it. But it does come across as a difficult "world" to break in to and you really need to never listen to anything going on around you. I'm sure that it isn't always like this, but my experiences as a "member of the public" have been this way and if this is what other people experience then it does become off putting.

I think public perception needs to change to increase the number of show people as well as ease of access to new people - I think a lot this comes down to the image of current exhibitors, attitudes of breeders (esp. regarding sale conditions) and the way feedback is given to people (from both judges and fellow exhibitors). But that's just from my limited experience as an outsider.

[Sayly]

After the first class in group I ever won, Mum and I got congratulated by heaps of people we didn't know or know well, including so called faces, all breed judges and big winners. My first BIG was the same.

Every BOB or challenge or class in group winner in my breed I try to make sure I say congratulations. I don't have to have agreed with the result, but they stil deserve the congrats.

I like showing, and I obviously I have been lucky enough to miss most of the crap that apparently goes on. I've seen a lot of crap, and sure, I know some people have bitched about me or my dog but I don't understand the point in getting hung up about it. All I can do is be the person I want to be, set an example for others, make sure I don't make the experience a negative one for people around me, and enjoy my day.

But I've only been showing for 5 years, so who knows, maybe in another 5 I will feel differently. Right now I am really craving a day at a show, I haven't been to one in a few weeks and uni is doing my head in! Its my way to unwind from uni and gives me something else to think about. I cope much better with uni work when I've had the little break for a day!

The topic is about why numbers at shows are dropping, and people feeling insulted by their fellow competitors is a very valid reason as to why they no longer show, and could be, in part, one of the reasons entries are falling. Just because you aren't upset by it, doesn't mean someone else isn't going to be and it doesn't mean their feelings are less important than yours. I don't personally think it plays a big part as I suspect it's always been like that, the same as "face judging".

My husband used to come to every show with me, now he flatly refuses, he absolutely hates it. Hates the atmosphere and hates what he hears going on around him. I asked him one day why he hears so much more than me and he pointed out that he is usually sitting reading a newspaper, minding his own business and not talking. People assume he's not listening so they say all kinds of things in his earshot.

I don't think I said anyone's feelings were less important than mine? I'm sorry if it made you feel that way. You know how I feel about the incident you are talking about, but I also don't understand why people would let one rude person turn them away from a hobby they are interested in, but maybe that's just me, maybe I'm just stubborn. But, we have had great support from our 1st show dog's breeder, and I think that support can make a lot of difference. I've seen a few show dogs sold to new people who don't have that breeder support and backing, and I think it would make it a lot harder when you first begin showing should someone be less than pleasant.

I'm simply putting in my opinion and saying I don't see why I should let one or two people's negative comments bother me and keep me from doing what I want to do, but it obviously bothers others more than it bothers me - perhaps they are more easily insulted than I am, or don't have the support we have. I'm putting forward my frame of mind which has kept me more than happy in the showing community, but like I said, I am still only a few years in, but several of my closest friends are showies and the majority of people who show are wonderful, I hate that a few bad eggs give everyone else a bad name. So I want to stand up for the good people involved. I haven't noticed more bitching in the dog show world than I did playing high level sport.

And I agree, I don't think it is the only or even the main reason there is a drop in numbers. Why are entries dropping - I don't know, but I know why I don't show every weekend, which I also put in my post. And like I said above, I don't think it is something that is easy to get into, especially without a great breeder or mentor to support you when you start out.

When I was younger and wanted to show, we had no idea where dog shows were held except the Royal. Maybe if they were better advertised, or like others said, in a more public place, more general public would attend and spark the interest of some, or at least turn them in the direction of a pedigree dog vs the mutt or the designer. But then who is to pay for this? Individual clubs which might be struggling for money? Our club is putting adverts in the paper for our upcoming show for the general public, but it cost more than I was expecting.

[Sayly]

my husband feels that the judging and showing has lost its way as a breeder/exhibitor the reason why you breed and show are to improve the breed if possible, then you take what you have breed to a dog show to show what you have breed and to see how you stack up to others, and to the breed standard, and to socialize with other breeders to learn and develop more about the breed, as you never stop learning but when dogs win due to whose holding the lead or how the dog was handled, makes you think do i breed to what the judges want ,or do i stick to the breed standard ,thats where the judges need to really know there standard and judge fairly as if they are not careful people will ask them selves do i breed to the judges standard or do i stick to the actually breed standard as people do get kennel blind as then when you lose to a better dog (been judged fairly ) you can then look and learn to breed a better dog next time thats how you improve the breed thats why we enjoy the specialty shows as we get a critique on the dogs (feed back from the judge )and the feed back you get from others is very helpful as we are all interested in the same thing BREEDING BETTER DOGS let me ask you this as well for some breeds it is near impossible to win a best in show due to the breed of a dog which is sad for instance how often has a bull terrier won a best in show at a all breeds

We had a huge winning BT in WA that won many best in shows (20 according to his profile). He was well known around every group and everyone loved him. He stood out as one of those once in a lifetime dogs.

He was top dog in WA there for a while wasn't he? I wish I had gotten to see him in the ring!

[jedi knight]

my husband feels that the judging and showing has lost its way as a breeder/exhibitor the reason why you breed and show are to improve the breed if possible, then you take what you have breed to a dog show to show what you have breed and to see how you stack up to others, and to the breed standard, and to socialize with other breeders to learn and develop more about the breed, as you never stop learning but when dogs win due to whose holding the lead or how the dog was handled, makes you think do i breed to what the judges want ,or do i stick to the breed standard ,thats where the judges need to really know there standard and judge fairly as if they are not careful people will ask them selves do i breed to the judges standard or do i stick to the actually breed standard as people do get kennel blind as then when you lose to a better dog (been judged fairly ) you can then look and learn to breed a better dog next time thats how you improve the breed thats why we enjoy the specialty shows as we get a critique on the dogs (feed back from the judge )and the feed back you get from others is very helpful as we are all interested in the same thing BREEDING BETTER DOGS let me ask you this as well for some breeds it is near impossible to win a best in show due to the breed of a dog which is sad for instance how often has a bull terrier won a best in show at a all breeds

We had a huge winning BT in WA that won many best in shows (20 according to his profile). He was well known around every group and everyone loved him. He stood out as one of those once in a lifetime dogs.

He was top dog in WA there for a while wasn't he? I wish I had gotten to see him in the ring!

Yes there was Aust Gr Ch Honhazsta Ring Quest

never had the chance to see him in the flesh

[Belljari]

Ive been thinking about this and I agree with much of what's been said face judging, bitching, cost etc have turned people off.

This is another reason why I think numbers dropped off at least from the Utility Ring. When I was showing Rottweilers in the 90's we would rarely ever get in to be judged before lunch as there were usually a huge entry of Dobes, boxers, you simply rarely see huge entries of any of the breeds that were once docked including Rotts. I used to be able to get 20+ challenges all without getting your BOB points you get these days. Now the Utility ring is usually one of the first rings to finish way before lunch and you rarely see more than 5 Rottweilers entered. Iam not speaking for every state just from my area.

I think many people just said enough and walked away from alot breeds.

Iam now showing in the Toy ring and I have found everyone to be friendly and encouraging esp within my breed. I really enjoy sitting with my dogs talking to different people. And watching the judging of course.

[conztruct]

Didn't a bull terrier (tri colour) win at Crufts or Westminster a few years back?

Yes - Rufus in 2006

[Chitchat]

sadly there are far too many judges doing "payback" for other judges. Only on the week-end some lovely dogs were beaten at breed level by a very average dog! however the dog was owned by a All Breeds judge!

Is there any wonder people get very "over it" when you are faced with this sort of judging.

[oakway]

Well I have followed this thread with interest and I have not seen one of the most obvious reasons for declining numbers and that is...... its been been declining over the last 20 years since the hey day of dog showing.

Many of us are 20 years older and and are pensioners and can not afford to show and breed like we used to.

Also many of us have dropped of the perch.

[kathq]

I have also watched this thread with interest. Mostly I show my dogs to their title while I'm waiting for them to be old enough to do other forms of dog sports. I used to continue showing past their title but not anymore. The cost of a show entry is almost double a trial entry and in these economic times you have to be aware of the budget.

As for the "face" judging it happens I'm sure but you soon learn which judges to not enter under and a lot of the time its not the face but the skill in the handling that allows them to win at least that's what I think it could be. You get better handlers in every type of dog sports and even in obedience the better handlers have an advantage in that they can often get there dog to perform where less skillful handlers cannot so why not showing??

[wuffles]

Well I have followed this thread with interest and I have not seen one of the most obvious reasons for declining numbers and that is...... its been been declining over the last 20 years since the hey day of dog showing.

Many of us are 20 years older and and are pensioners and can not afford to show and breed like we used to.

Also many of us have dropped of the perch.

So why aren't younger people getting involved?

[whiskedaway]

I think getting younger people involved is hard because when you're young you normally don't want to get up at the crack of dawn on a weekend, you're busy studying/starting a career and as a result have better things to spend time/money on and unless you know someone who shows, you often don't know you can do it.

For me, biggest factor is cost. I've been on the receiving end of horribly nasty comments (said behind my back, not sure if I was meant to overhear it but I did) and as a result I pulled my dog from the ring for a month to let her mature. However my breed is rare, those people wouldn't know what makes a good lappie if they fell over it and so I didn't let it put me off. I am looking forward to getting back in the ring (we've just had another month off due to our wedding) and spending some time at shows.