Why Is It So

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Could be any number of things or combinations of things (money and time are big issues I agree). However, it is swings and roundabouts and it depends on the area of Australia you're talking about. Used to be there were no IWs being shown in Canberra, now they are regulars around the rings. Why don't we ever ask why that is and see if we can emulate what they are doing right?

Also, while most groups are under pressure, the toy rings I'm seeing are still pulling high numbers compared to other groups. As they are well represented in noise complaint issues, it can't be dog regulation alone that influences that, but perhaps modern life and the cost of housing and petrol are an issue. Moving onto acreage and commuting into town are outside many people's budgets.

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about face judging.

Face judging exists, and it is a problem, but it is one symptom of a wider problem of a lack of professionalism across the whole sport - including exhibitors, committees, councils, show officials and judges. Everyone who participates in showing is an ambassador for the sport and poor sportsmanship and whinging is dragging the sport down as well as the cronyism and the corruption. Here's some food for thought:

http://my.opera.com/troels/blog/show.dml/683817

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It is not only local and interstate judges that face judge, i have been at shows with international judges and a breeder has sat with the judges for best in show while the other half was in the ring and when the other half wins they come out to the judges and kiss and cuddle them and state, we owe you a couple of bottles of wine do you like red or white.

And another who after winning talkes to the judges about how they will be in (what ever country judging next week) why dont you come with me.

And another who has the judges over for dinner that night. guess who one the next day.

Did you see and hear this yourself, and if so, did you tell the committee or the show rep?

[Affirmation]

Great topic

For what it's worth, I feel we as breeders can put alot of potential "new exhibitors" off by putting them through the third degree when they enquire about obtaining a puppy to show. I know that we have a duty of care to make sure our precious puppies go to suitable homes, but when breeders refuse to sell puppy's on the main register it can make obtaining a puppy to show "all too hard". Again, with the animosity amongst breeders for what ever reason, can also make potential "newcomers" think twice about getting involved in our hobby when they're told "don't buy from so & so, they have crap dogs" etc etc.

I've met some great people whilst showing but of course I've also had my share of rude and arrogant people. They need to realise that we're not competing for "sheep stations", and that their dogs will get beaten sometimes. Thats what keeps it interesting, if the same dog won everytime you wouldn't bother wasting your precious time & money competing. If you can't accept being beaten from time to time, then maybe this isn't the hobby for you. Another thing thats lacking sometimes is good sportsmanship. If you get beaten, accept that decision with good grace and congratulate the winners....it doesn't cost anything to do that.

I was at a show last weekend, where other exhibitors thought that they'd give me "their opinion" on my dogs. They didn't comment on the dogs good attributes, but told me everything that was "wrong" with my dogs. I'm sorry, but I didn't ask for their opinions and as I tell my kids, if you've got nothing nice to say, then don't say anything.

I've also noticed that around the rings, people shut themselves off to the public or other "prying eyes" by enclosing themselves in their cabana's. It doesn't portray a "welcoming" atmosphere, especially for the general public who make the effort to come and watch our dogs.

Unfortunately "face judging" will always be an element in our sport. As exhibitors, we can show those judges our thoughts by NOT entering where they are judging. Kennel Clubs make their money from the entries and if numbers are down those particular judges will not get many appointments.

I show purely to have fun and maybe pull off a win although I'm the "feather duster more often than I am a Rooster" lol. I have met and made some great friends and at the end of the day I get to take the "best" dogs home again. My daughter is just starting out showing and she had a great time last weekend with the other kids & she also got to take home a few ribbons which are now proudly blu-tac'd on the wall behind her bed. Isn't that what showing is all about ??

At the end of the day breeders need to be more pro-active with encouraging their puppy buyers to join their states local Canine Council and have fun showing their dogs. I firmly believe that neutered/spayed dogs should be allowed to compete in the same classes alongside entire dogs, especially as we're only judging a dogs conformation against the breed standard - just because a dog has two "apparently normal testicles" doesn't make it stud material. Lets be honest, we've all seen stunning examples of a breed that are desexed and in pet homes that would wipe the floor in the show ring, so why not allow them to compete. It would surely increase numbers.

For me, I'll keep showing while I'm still having fun and when the fun has gone I'll stop going. I don't do hundreds of miles chasing shows as I hate driving so when there are shows close enough to home I'll go to those. Some people IMO develope unhealthy obsessions chasing points and judges & I think they are the ones who spoil it for the rest of us.

[nynka]

My theory is hat it goes deeper than just the show scene. Across the country, there is a general lack of care or pride these days in pedigree dog ownership. It used to be a "badge of honour" to own an animal with a fine pedigree as a family pet, these days the dubious honour seems to belong to who can pay the most money for a generic looking mongrel puppy with a stupid made up game.

Dog showing is a fairly negative experience........it's not very friendly, there's not much excitement or appreciation from spectators, it's pretty bitchy and then there's face judging.............but I doubt any of that has changed in recent years, I expect it's always been like that.

Look closely at the pedigree dog world in general........the limit register, the purchases of puppies all wrapped and bound with red rape and legalese, the influx of designer dogs foisted on the public..........and these puppies ARE taking places in homes that would formerly have been occupied by pedigree dogs...........and you might see why dog shows aren't as popular as they used to be.

All the above. Big ticks to Paragraph 1 & 3

[Mandalay]

It is not only local and interstate judges that face judge, i have been at shows with international judges and a breeder has sat with the judges for best in show while the other half was in the ring and when the other half wins they come out to the judges and kiss and cuddle them and state, we owe you a couple of bottles of wine do you like red or white.

And another who after winning talkes to the judges about how they will be in (what ever country judging next week) why dont you come with me.

And another who has the judges over for dinner that night. guess who one the next day.

Did you see and hear this yourself, and if so, did you tell the committee or the show rep?

Just to add a tiny spanner in the works, what is going to happen if this is reported, I have been involved in a, lets say a altercation, where members have posted the $150.00 and out come has been nothing !! humm Wonder why some do not report it ?????

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Just to add a tiny spanner in the works, what is going to happen if this is reported, I have been involved in a, lets say a altercation, where members have posted the $150.00 and out come has been nothing !! humm Wonder why some do not report it ?????

I'm not necessarily suggesting reporting. I know that I've seen stuff and decided not to formally report it because I could see it would be a waste of money and time.

You have to see something yourself to know it really happened tho'. I have recently had three people who saw and were involved in a specific incident recount the incident to me, and each had a different view about what happened. I wasn't there, so I won't repeat the story because frankly, I have no way of knowing what is true. If half of it was true though, it was reportable against 2 breaches of the regulations.

As a show sec, if there is something iffy going on at a show I am running I want to know about it, even if it can't stand up to a report. And just maybe, one exhibitor's bit of info is the final bit of the puzzle I need to sort out a problem.

Got more to say on this but gotta run. Might start a new thread later :D

[Gayle.]

Great topic

For what it's worth, I feel we as breeders can put alot of potential "new exhibitors" off by putting them through the third degree when they enquire about obtaining a puppy to show. I know that we have a duty of care to make sure our precious puppies go to suitable homes, but when breeders refuse to sell puppy's on the main register it can make obtaining a puppy to show "all too hard". Again, with the animosity amongst breeders for what ever reason, can also make potential "newcomers" think twice about getting involved in our hobby when they're told "don't buy from so & so, they have crap dogs" etc etc.

Not all breeders are like this, thank goodness. I had a general chat with an interstate breeder on the phone the other night, long term plan is to purchase a show quality puppy (not any time soon), and despite the fact that I'm a "nobody" he was quite open to the idea of selling me something good enough to show, and suggested that if I wanted to breed down the track, he'd be more than happy to talk to me about it and help me out.

I've met some great people whilst showing but of course I've also had my share of rude and arrogant people. They need to realise that we're not competing for "sheep stations", and that their dogs will get beaten sometimes. Thats what keeps it interesting, if the same dog won everytime you wouldn't bother wasting your precious time & money competing. If you can't accept being beaten from time to time, then maybe this isn't the hobby for you. Another thing thats lacking sometimes is good sportsmanship. If you get beaten, accept that decision with good grace and congratulate the winners....it doesn't cost anything to do that.

I was at a show last weekend, where other exhibitors thought that they'd give me "their opinion" on my dogs. They didn't comment on the dogs good attributes, but told me everything that was "wrong" with my dogs. I'm sorry, but I didn't ask for their opinions and as I tell my kids, if you've got nothing nice to say, then don't say anything.

I wrote about exactly that a few months ago.......I've copied it here because I think this is very apt.

When I got my second dog, Dusty, I decided to show her. We entered some dog shows and she won a few small prizes. I loved showing her, I loved her with all my heart and it made me so proud to groom her beautifully and take her in the ring. As she grew up, I realised she was never going to win much but I still loved showing her from time to time.

A few months ago, at a dog show, someone told me she wasn't good enough to show. I haven't shown her since.

Let's put that into perspective. I drive 2 hours to a show, with my beautiful dog all bathed and groomed. She gets groomed some more before our turn in the ring. We meet with owners of other Australian Shepherds, we socialise, we share lunch, we watch other dogs have their turn in the ring and we head for home sometimes having supported the small businesses at the show grounds by buying food, or dog supplies from the vendors there.

Who won? I did, I had a fabulous day out with my dog. She did, she got me to herself for the whole day and a 4 hour round trip in the car. The club holding the dog show did, we paid our entry fee, bought a catalogue and maybe bought some tickets in their raffle. The vendors did too, I possibly spent $20-$50 on their offerings, sometimes more.

So, who said my dog isn't good enough to show? She might not be good enough to win, but she has every right to be there having a day out doing what beautiful dogs do.

They might not all be winners, but anyone who makes an effort to spend a whole day at a dog event with their best friend comes out a winner at the end of the day.

[The Spotted Devil]

Interesting, GayleK. I had a similar experience, although it was more a snide comment that I was clearly meant to overhear. It didn't scar me forever ;) but when I started competing in obedience and agility the experience was so overwhelmingly positive (whether we won or bombed out) that I just haven't made the time to get back into showing. It's something I'd like to do but it's further down on the list of priorities.

[Dellcara]

why is it so ??

from my own point of view I've thought about it and have the following reasons why I don't enter as many shows as I used to ....

1. I have other things to do besides show every weekend.

2. Judges - face judging has always been there - it'll never change - vote with your feet and stay home.

3. Expense - everything is getting more expensive these days.

4. Enjoyment - it ain't what it used to be .. some people are playing for sheep stations .. pointscores etc etc

cheers....

[Gayle.]

Interesting, GayleK. I had a similar experience, although it was more a snide comment that I was clearly meant to overhear. It didn't scar me forever ;) but when I started competing in obedience and agility the experience was so overwhelmingly positive (whether we won or bombed out) that I just haven't made the time to get back into showing. It's something I'd like to do but it's further down on the list of priorities.

Oh this was said in a very friendly, chatty manner, right to my face......listing all the negative points of my dog. But not at a local show, this was at a show in another state I'd driven 15 hours to attend.

It didn't scar me at all but it really pissed me off, and what pissed me off more was that my teenage daughter, who had come on the road trip with me, was made to feel our dogs were second rate. They aren't, and one of them went on to win Puppy in Group that very same day, but it definitely isn't the way to welcome someone to your state.

I like showing, but I don't do it very regularly as I get sick of it quickly. I have three weekends of shows coming up and after that I'm gonna need a 3 month break to recover! LOL! To be honest, since I've discovered herding, I'm more inclined to spend my money and time on that because like you with obedience, I find herding to be extremely positive and very, very friendly. I've never had anyone say anything negative about my herding dog, only very encouraging and positive things and the same with my handling. I've only ever been made to feel like we belong, not like we have to prove that we're good enough to be there.

[Mandalay]

why is it so ??

from my own point of view I've thought about it and have the following reasons why I don't enter as many shows as I used to ....

1. I have other things to do besides show every weekend.

2. Judges - face judging has always been there - it'll never change - vote with your feet and stay home.

3. Expense - everything is getting more expensive these days.

4. Enjoyment - it ain't what it used to be .. some people are playing for sheep stations .. pointscores etc etc

cheers....

:D Yes Dellcara I am at the same stage.....but never have been a die hard show at all cost......

[mr m]

It is not only local and interstate judges that face judge, i have been at shows with international judges and a breeder has sat with the judges for best in show while the other half was in the ring and when the other half wins they come out to the judges and kiss and cuddle them and state, we owe you a couple of bottles of wine do you like red or white.

And another who after winning talkes to the judges about how they will be in (what ever country judging next week) why dont you come with me.

And another who has the judges over for dinner that night. guess who one the next day.

Did you see and hear this yourself, and if so, did you tell the committee or the show rep?

Yes i did.

[Sayly]

I like showing, but I don't do it very regularly as I get sick of it quickly. I have three weekends of shows coming up and after that I'm gonna need a 3 month break to recover! LOL! To be honest, since I've discovered herding, I'm more inclined to spend my money and time on that because like you with obedience, I find herding to be extremely positive and very, very friendly. I've never had anyone say anything negative about my herding dog, only very encouraging and positive things and the same with my handling. I've only ever been made to feel like we belong, not like we have to prove that we're good enough to be there.

And yet the bolded section is how I have felt in all the years I have been showing. I know not everyone is as lucky as me, but getting into showing has been a positive experience for me, and Mum. We have shown in two groups and people from both have been nothing but helpful and encouraged us, both in our breed and in others. Many of them are now great friends and I love going to shows to see them, win or lose.

I know there is negativity there too, I have occasionally experienced it, but not often, and from people who's oppions don't matter to me anyway.

I work every 2nd Saturday, and I am studying a pretty full on degree, both of which limit the time I can show, but I show as often as I am able.

However, we don't show Mum's Irish much anymore because there isn't much point. There's no other Irish out in SA at the moment, and she is rarely given a class in group. We enter under specialists and when we know there's competition at breed level that's about it.

[Showpony]

It is not only local and interstate judges that face judge, i have been at shows with international judges and a breeder has sat with the judges for best in show while the other half was in the ring and when the other half wins they come out to the judges and kiss and cuddle them and state, we owe you a couple of bottles of wine do you like red or white.

And another who after winning talkes to the judges about how they will be in (what ever country judging next week) why dont you come with me.

And another who has the judges over for dinner that night. guess who one the next day.

Did you see and hear this yourself, and if so, did you tell the committee or the show rep?

Hi,

Saw a similiar thing at Sydney Royal this year.........one of the judges was just standing around all by themselves watching ring 1......when an exhibitor came up, there was a big happy hello from both parties, a kiss and then a fairly long converstaion. My intial thought was this should not be allowed to happen and where was the steward or a committee member.

As an aside, the horse judges appointed at Sydney Royal are escorted by security the minute they arrive at the front gate till the time they leave via the front gate, so no exhibitor can get anywhere near them.....I think sometimes Judges dont do themselves any favours and leave themselve wide open to be called corrupt.

[OSoSwift]

For me it is the costs involved and the time, I have a young family and other commitments.

I have fairly vast distances to travel for a small country show and even longer ones for a Perth show.

We used to have more country show near me but unfortunately they are no longer, if they were I would do more

I have had snide comments and down right nasty people have a go at me, but as far as I am concerned it is their issue not mine. I go have fun don't "expect" anything and go home tired and happy having spent a weekend with my dogs and catching up with old friends.

I also enjoy my dog sports and for me if my bitch gets to an age where I think desexing will be of benefit or there is an issue I would happily desex and continue do just the dogs sports (or neuter but I am yet to see one offered in the very few shows I have been to).

Yeh there is Face Judging, yeh there is bitchyness but I let it wash over me. I do get annoyed with bad sportsmanship though. Just makes me think a lot less of the person and less likely to ever recommend them to a potential puppy purchaser.

I am certainly not in it for sheep stations or chasing points, live too far away for that

[Rebanne]

I haven't stepped foot in the obedience ring for quite a few years now but there was plenty of bitching going on there when I was competing.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

As an aside, the horse judges appointed at Sydney Royal are escorted by security the minute they arrive at the front gate till the time they leave via the front gate, so no exhibitor can get anywhere near them.....I think sometimes Judges dont do themselves any favours and leave themselve wide open to be called corrupt.

A good dog club will do this too, tho' I think in NSW we are more slack on this score than in other states. We should be doing it not just to avoid perceptions of conflict of interest but to also to protect the judge from pests before and after the show.

Edited because I can't rite gud

Edited October 20, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[OSoSwift]

I haven't stepped foot in the obedience ring for quite a few years now but there was plenty of bitching going on there when I was competing.

Yes I have seen it in dogsport rings as well

[angelsun]

I've also noticed that around the rings, people shut themselves off to the public or other "prying eyes" by enclosing themselves in their cabana's. It doesn't portray a "welcoming" atmosphere, especially for the general public who make the effort to come and watch our dogs.

Agreed....this is the one thing I don't think I"ll ever get used to. We always just set up wherever and tents were never closed in (unless the weather was absolutely FOUL) but on sunny days, air and breezes and shades over the crates only. Lots of open spaces and no one worried about if they were RIGHT in front of THEIR ring. We also grabbed our chairs and sat by the ropes at whatever ring we wanted, watched and learned. I'm told this isn't allowed here because of the 2m ring side rule (and I probably would get bowled over by a bunch of trolleys!)

We sat and watched the group judging and we clapped when the dogs moved around. Yes we had favourites but everyone got claps. Same thing for BIS.....appreciating the seven dogs in the ring for getting there! Cheers for the winner....here, you can hear a pin drop....We didn't have the many class in show awards, just Best Puppy in Show...but we treated it the same as the BIS and clapped for everyone that was in there and moved around. It was a big event to win and the crowd was behind you when you did.

All I seem to see here, is rolling eyes, hearing snorts of disgust or bitching coming from tents ringside because the occupant figures they were pretty hard done by to not win class A or B or whatever.

I don't win much here (clearly I'm not a 'face') but my satisfaction comes from a dog that shows well for me. I'll take that and enjoy it, but unfortunately most often, it's simply not enough to keep up the enthusiasm for a weekend at a show.

[angelsun]

double post...oops

Edited October 20, 2011 by angelsun