corvus Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Today Erik literally turned around and ran 10m to me so he could 'tell' me about the huge number of dogs in the park playing ball using LAT. Sometimes he's fine with huge numbers of dogs playing ball, but sometimes they make him bark. Triggers are surprisingly complicated with him. I LOVE how I don't have to guess so much anymore. He tells me when something is over stimulating him. It's the second time in a week and a half that he's told me about something that is making him want to bark by initiating LAT. What's more, I can tell him when he can use LAT to cope with something he isn't sure about and it gives him that confidence to relax a little and accept it. The more Erik practises LAT, the more often I get surprised by how he uses it and what it tells me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyBlue Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Ive never heard of LAT before - what is it? is there a thread on here about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Having great success with my BC girl using LAT. At training tonight even the arrival of the "little dog on the string" only phased her slightly till I started playing the game of LAT, then it was "Oh, there is a little dog over there, did you see it.....where's my treat, Mum " I have just bought Leslies Control Unleashed DVD's & Book & am making my way through them. She has more to offer than just LAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Ive never heard of LAT before - what is it? is there a thread on here about it? It's called the Look At That game, from memory. I don't have the details of the game, but if you do a search of the training forum using that phrase, you should hopefully find the thread where people were talking about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Just briefly, it's the opposite to Look At Me & is very handy for dogs that are distracted, stressed or reactive to stimuli. EG. My dog is/was very distracted by other dogs running in a trial..if she was on course, she would get distracted or if she was just waiting in line, she would lunge & spin & carry on like a Tassie Devil. It's called "counter-conditioning" & you start off small & build up the stimuli. When the dog looks at the stimuli (but before she has reacted) you click...the dog turns to you & you treat. If the dog doesn't turn, it means you have jumped ahead too much & you need to go back a few steps. Eventually, the dog sees the stimuli...looks quickly at it, then automatically turns back to you, as if to say, "did you see that...where's my treat" It's good also to get dogs to learn a balance between handler focus & obstical focus. Instead of the stimuli being a hinderance, it actually becomes a cue for your dog to look at you. You will get a lot of critisism from people who "know", but I have learnt to ignore that & it has paid off for me & my highly reactive BC. She is still a work in progress but has improved out of sight. I couldn't be happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This sounds like something I could try with my youngest, he is already good at telling me when something is bothering him, he is very expressive and talky but there is a friends two dogs who we have play dates with and when they play together Bronson runs in and barks and tries t o get them to stop. They ignore him which makes him bark and chase them more. So if I could get his attention (I don't use a clicker) before this behavior escalates and treat and repeat, hopefully I might be able to break the habit. I usually just pop him on he lead then he ignores them. I wish I could figure out why he does it? Well done Eric! He sounds very similar in a lot of what he does to Bronson so often I read your posts nodding my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Tic...it's a lot easier if your dog is already trained to love the clicker. The clicker is a much more instant marker than your voice or calling his name. You get good at it & can mark the exact moment he looks at the other dogs. If you use his name & he ignores it, then you run the risk of ruining your recall training. The clicker acts as both an instant marker & also an interupter. My girl just will do anything for the clicker & now I only just have to produce it in a stressful situation & do a couple of minutes of LAT & she is "all mine". In your case you would start off with the other dogs being still & at a distance, & the instant Bronson turns his head to look at them, you would click & treat. Providing he understands the clicker, if he doesn't turn instantly, then you need to move further away. You just build it up from there till he can see the other dogs playing & doesn't react. It doesn't happen overnight & don't move on too quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Great explanation sheena :D i've been using it on my youngster who is distracted by...everything! So far so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 We're still trying to find that sweet spot between looking at something and reacting. He's so quick he almost explodes when something overstimulates him! One day. I love your threads, Corvus. E x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Thanks Sheena, that was a great explaination, I understand exactly what your saying, Maybe I will have a read up on cicker training and give it a go with Bron. I have never thought about using one before as the other 3 were all easy to train and are generally well behaved. But the young fella has been a bit of a challenge in the learning stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 We're still trying to find that sweet spot between looking at something and reacting. He's so quick he almost explodes when something overstimulates him! One day. I love your threads, Corvus. E x Hmm... Try more distance. IME 'explosions' usually happen because there is too much pressure. I'm not sure if it would be the same for your fella, but I've experienced the thing where they seem fine and then suddenly flip out too fast to do anything about it, and reducing the pressure either with more distance or by going slower tends to slow them down and give you a chance to see what is going on. I've been surprised a few times at how reducing the pressure has made it much more obvious how unsettled the animal is. Suddenly I see lots of behaviours I didn't see before because it was all happening too fast. And they will respond in smaller increments, so instead of getting a sudden explosion you get, say, restlessness, fixations, whining, signs of agitation or distress, signs of uncertainty and hesitancy. That's when you jump in and cue LAT or something else, because they aren't sure what they should do and you've just told them, so they'll probably do it. For me, getting practise in real life in those early stages was the hardest bit because Erik was used to just firing up early. I had to really watch him so I could get in before he barked. I treated any silent looking as an offered LAT and rewarded it and then started cueing it once I had his attention. That was a turning point and I think it really helped me be clearer with what I wanted so he could deliver. It wasn't long from there before he started offering it in response to things in the environment. Leslie McDevitt stresses that LAT is a conversation between dog and handler. It's a way for your dog to tell you they are bothered by something without flipping out, and a way for you to warn them when there's something coming or tell them how to handle something if they are anxious about it. Glad you like my threads. ;) Tlc, yep, what Bronson does is exactly the kind of thing Erik does. Bronson doesn't have any herder in him, does he?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I'm loving all these LAT moments!!!! We had one last night where Kenzie was able to tell me that a dog she has very very frequently been reactive to (mainly when it is moving/playing) was running over jumps and through a tunnel and was closer to her than she would like!!!! We were obviously at the perfect distance for her to not feel the need to react, but there was lots of "look the dogs running" and she just did so well!!! One of those moments where you realise that it does work and how far along they can come when you give them a way to "talk" to you!!!!! Yay for everyone who's having successes at the moment!!! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Well I think he thinks he does! He is half cocker half poodle. I think he likes to control the game and when big dogs play he doesn't join in due to thier size, (none of mine will "play" with bigger dogs) so it's possible it's a "I can't play so I don't want you too either" as soon as the bigger dogs stop he stops, but usually so the bigger dogs can have a rumble I pop him on the lead and he is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I'm thinking about stepping up to formal LAT for my boy, he's taken a bit of a backslide with reactivity recently I use two related methods, 'who's that?' and 'just watch'. I use 'who's that' when he is locked on to something in his sheep-dog way and I just want to break his attention so he can learn to listen under high excitement. (I say "whossat?", get a whip around of the head, C&T, let him go on with what he's doing. I don't really care where he's looking, as long as he can be distracted and listens). This has been fine because I've been able to build the reward of attention to me higher than chasing things, but recently he had a bit of trauma (in his own mind anyway) of being left with a friend overnight and it looks like we're gonna have to get more serious. So far I've only used 'just watch' when he's waiting for his turn on sheep at herding, it essentially means stop barking and watch quietly ("just watch"> if quiet, treat but allow to keep watching other dogs herd). Thanks to Sheena I have a Clean Run article about LAT on my ipad, and I'm going to conscript my OH to ride a bike past us once we've got the base work done. Based on all the rave reviews here on DOL, I have high hopes that the Weez can become a model suburban dog, just like his goody-two-shoes big sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thanks so much for this information and also the other info corvus. I have bought a copy of Control Unleashed but embarrassingly am still struggling with the basics. Am I supposed to point with my hand at something to 'lure' the dog into looking at it or am I just supposed to wait until the dog looks at something I want it to look at and then click? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thanks so much for this information and also the other info corvus. I have bought a copy of Control Unleashed but embarrassingly am still struggling with the basics. Am I supposed to point with my hand at something to 'lure' the dog into looking at it or am I just supposed to wait until the dog looks at something I want it to look at and then click? Thanks! To start with I bridged the moment Kenzie had seen something, and after doing it that way for a while I then started to put it on cue. If I saw something I knew she would react to I'd say "look at that dog" and point to it and the moment she looked bridged and rewarded. I'm still trying to get to going through CU (amongst the 8 million other trainign things I need to look at for her!!!). But this system has worked really well for us and now if I say "look at that dog" she looks everywhere to see it so that she can get a treat. I'm not yet to the point of being willing to fade the treats, although frequency is a little less (this is as much about my braveness moreso than her response!!). But yesterday we saw the fruits of our labour!! Had a 1.5hr walk - bikes rode past us, people jogged past us and there were several dogs being walked where we went. We kept our distance (which is much less than it used to be - now we can be within 2m of a bike or jogger, still need about 6-10m for other dogs) but she didn't react to any of them!!! And she wasn't wearing her halti (which she has needed in the past, yesterday was a test run for us!)!! But each time she sat down and watched the thing go past or in the case of the dogs kept glancing at them then looking at me - but she wasn't phased by any of it!!!! Yay!!!! Only dog nerds would get this I'm thinking, oh well!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Thanks! LM says that you're only supposed to do it when the dog is below threshold i.e. not aroused. My problem is that Elbie gets excited/aroused as soon as he seems another dog so I'm not sure how I would start doing LAT with dogs ... should I stand in the car park at dog school perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Thanks! LM says that you're only supposed to do it when the dog is below threshold i.e. not aroused. My problem is that Elbie gets excited/aroused as soon as he seems another dog so I'm not sure how I would start doing LAT with dogs ... should I stand in the car park at dog school perhaps? you almost made me laugh out loud!!! (and i'm sitting in a VERY VERY quiet office) I'm also doing LAT and saying "watching..... wwwaaaattttcccccchhhhhhiiiiiiinnnnnnggggggggggggggggggg" as we walk past bikes, runners, etc... it works as it prepares her for something to appear unexpectedly around us At the moment, everytime we see an oncoming dog walking along the path I start walking off the path at an angle away from the dog and we sort of do a big curve around them, so by the time they are level with uswe're almost 5-10 meters away from the path. This looks so strange to some people and when my Dad comes with me he feels the need to tell these confused people "oh, they're in training" A couple of points - this "arc" works well until you come across people with flexi leads who let their hyperactive swf dogs run out the 20m of lead to visit us when its pretty darn obvious that I was trying to keep Asti under threshold and stay a comfortable distance from them! so standing in the carpark at a dog school isn't far from what I'm doing anyway... On the flip side - this sub-threashold distance exercise is starting to work! Asti now see's dogs coming and will start walking on an angle away from the path!!! I couldn't have been happier when I started to see her voluntarily walk out of the way of the oncoming dog My next test is to start making the "arcs" smaller so we're only walking 2-5m off the path! its been a long road but we're making progress! and I know this will rub off on our new puppy too, so i'm very excited at finally making some progress! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But yesterday we saw the fruits of our labour!! Had a 1.5hr walk - bikes rode past us, people jogged past us and there were several dogs being walked where we went. We kept our distance (which is much less than it used to be - now we can be within 2m of a bike or jogger, still need about 6-10m for other dogs) but she didn't react to any of them!!! And she wasn't wearing her halti (which she has needed in the past, yesterday was a test run for us!)!! But each time she sat down and watched the thing go past or in the case of the dogs kept glancing at them then looking at me - but she wasn't phased by any of it!!!! Yay!!!! Only dog nerds would get this I'm thinking, oh well!!! Good Job! I understand how excited you are! as I am feeling the same way!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Thanks! LM says that you're only supposed to do it when the dog is below threshold i.e. not aroused. My problem is that Elbie gets excited/aroused as soon as he seems another dog so I'm not sure how I would start doing LAT with dogs ... should I stand in the car park at dog school perhaps? If Elbie gets excited right away, you may need to teach him the game using other stimuli and generalise it, then introduce it from a distance from other dogs. It depends on how aroused he gets. If he's still able to respond to a clicker by looking at you, that's workable as long as he's not barking or bouncing on his toes. I'll pay even a borderline fixated look as long as Erik isn't barking, but barking is the first thing Erik usually does when he gets excited. Other things you could try to lessen the intensity of the trigger is, obviously, distance. If you can set it up so you can be confident he won't end up too close, that works. Perhaps he would also be able to tolerate being closer with a barrier to lessen the intensity, like being in a car for example, or having a fence between you and the other dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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