experiencedfun Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. I do sympathise with you and other cataloguers, must be frustrating. And curious, how did you catalogue that Junior Neuter? did you slot that after the entire Juniors or at the end of the bitches/dogs (whichever gender it is)?... if you don't mind me asking. I am just now getting a bit mind blown about pondering what actually does run off against what if there are multiple Neuter classes and entries, as up until now, the shows I have attended have only offered 18 and 18A. I assume they run challenge dog and bitch, same as entires, and then run those off against one another to get their BNOB. But then we seem to have confusion as to whether these BNOB run off against one another in a Best Neuter In Group line up or are they only going to be running off the indivudual classes in Neuter Group Surely they have to be otherwise why is this call for us to be sponsoring NIG sashes, of which there is supposedly one per group, not one for each Neuter Class per group. And then..... in show??? I had to stop pondering this yesterday as it was doing my head in. Edited October 20, 2011 by dyzney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 As much as I would like like to see the classes available the same as as our entires it is just not practical a the moment. Why not ask for the neuter class to be as such for the time being. Neuter class 1. NC1 for dogs 3 months of age but under 18 months Neuter class 2. NC2 for dog 18 months of age but under 36 months Neuter class 3. NC3 for dogs 3 months and over or for dog over 36 months of age. The same for bitches NC1 A NC2 A NC3 A All judging to follow the format of the Entire Classes through to Group and Show Specials. Your class NC1 is not possible as a dog has to be over 6 months of age to gain points towards a title. ANKC Ltd Regulations part 5 Shows 7.8 Neuter Championship Points System (exactly the same wording as for entires in 7.7 Championship Points System) Graham Their neuters ....... What would it matter. OK then just re arrange the classes to include baby puppy dog or bitch. But please remember if the baby puppies are still entire they should be entered in ordinary classes. (Many people don't want to de sex early) We must not lose the object of the exercise it is for neuters. Starts to pose problems dosen't it. Keep it simple I say. The wording could alway be amemded to Puppy 6 months and under 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. I do sympathise with you and other cataloguers, must be frustrating. And curious, how did you catalogue that Junior Neuter? did you slot that after the entire Juniors or at the end of the bitches/dogs (whichever gender it is)?... if you don't mind me asking. I am just now getting a bit mind blown about pondering what actually does run off against what if there are multiple Neuter classes and entries, as up until now, the shows I have attended have only offered 18 and 18A. I assume they run challenge dog and bitch, same as entires, and then run those off against one another to get their BNOB. But then we seem to have confusion as to whether these BNOB run off against one another in a Best Neuter In Group line up or are they only going to be running off the indivudual classes in Neuter Group Surely they have to be otherwise why is this call for us to be sponsoring NIG sashes, of which there is supposedly one per group, not one for each Neuter Class per group. And then..... in show??? I had to stop pondering this yesterday as it was doing my head in. My thoughts on this..... Catalogue and judge them after the breed entire classes. Why.... again keep it simple. It would be running 2 shows in conjunction with one another one for entires and one for neuters. All judged by the same judges allocated. Lets face it at the moment the clubs are not being inundated with entries. If it neuter classes take off why couldn't aspiring judges be engaged to judge these classes along with their normal Open Show apointments in the states where applicable. Just a few thoughts.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. You are correct that they are judged like a seperate breed, this has been the case since the neuter classes were first allowed back in January 2000. SECTION 3 Neuter Classes 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. These regualtions were wriitten this way to ensure there was no confusion about which exhibits were eligible to go into the "Challenge" line up. By having the entire classes completely finished before the neuter classes commence, there is no way a neuter can "slip" into the challenge line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 yes, but I catalogued them in class number order....so 10, 11, 16, 18 then the same for bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. You are correct that they are judged like a seperate breed, this has been the case since the neuter classes were first allowed back in January 2000. SECTION 3 Neuter Classes 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. These regualtions were wriitten this way to ensure there was no confusion about which exhibits were eligible to go into the "Challenge" line up. By having the entire classes completely finished before the neuter classes commence, there is no way a neuter can "slip" into the challenge line up. Terrific, that is what I thought. It was just what Megz wrote previously that threw me... "no such thing as Neuter In Group". I thought there was. I get that points aren't awarded for same, but it does not mean there is no such thing? ... not picking, just trying to understand Perhaps Megz was referring to the points system and I just misinterpreted :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. You are correct that they are judged like a seperate breed, this has been the case since the neuter classes were first allowed back in January 2000. SECTION 3 Neuter Classes 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. These regualtions were wriitten this way to ensure there was no confusion about which exhibits were eligible to go into the "Challenge" line up. By having the entire classes completely finished before the neuter classes commence, there is no way a neuter can "slip" into the challenge line up. Terrific, that is what I thought. It was just what Megz wrote previously that threw me... "no such thing as Neuter In Group". I thought there was. I get that points aren't awarded for same, but it does not mean there is no such thing? ... not picking, just trying to understand Perhaps Megz was referring to the points system and I just misinterpreted :D There is no such thing as Neuter in Group. It has to be Open Neuter in Group or whichever classes are offered. It is only when only Open neuter is offered that each of the best neuter of breed would always go against each other. For example: There are 4 Neutered dogs entered in a particular breed .15 Puppy Neuter - 1 .16 Junior Neuter - 2 .17 Intermediate Neuter - 3 .18 Open Neuter - 4 Then a spattering of other neuters throughout the group. 1 would go against all other Puppy N's 2 against all other Junior N's etc etc If number 3 took out best neuter of that breed from the intermediate class and all other breed were won by the Open Neuter then the BOB that 3 won would never compete for a "Best in Group" against the other BOB's there is no provision for this to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 a guide would be fantastic. I have catalogued 2 shows in group - breed - class number order but then find out that all the entire classes get judged first and then the neuter classes. Going by that I should have put all the entire classes then a sub heading neuter and then the neuter classes. Next time???? That's what I spotted at a previous show too EF. Yes, the Neuters are all catalogued after the entires, sort of like a separate breed, and run that way too. Not male neuters after entire males and neuter bitches after entire bitches. You are correct that they are judged like a seperate breed, this has been the case since the neuter classes were first allowed back in January 2000. SECTION 3 Neuter Classes 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. These regualtions were wriitten this way to ensure there was no confusion about which exhibits were eligible to go into the "Challenge" line up. By having the entire classes completely finished before the neuter classes commence, there is no way a neuter can "slip" into the challenge line up. Terrific, that is what I thought. It was just what Megz wrote previously that threw me... "no such thing as Neuter In Group". I thought there was. I get that points aren't awarded for same, but it does not mean there is no such thing? ... not picking, just trying to understand Perhaps Megz was referring to the points system and I just misinterpreted :D There is no such thing as Neuter in Group. It has to be Open Neuter in Group or whichever classes are offered. It is only when only Open neuter is offered that each of the best neuter of breed would always go against each other. For example: There are 4 Neutered dogs entered in a particular breed .15 Puppy Neuter - 1 .16 Junior Neuter - 2 .17 Intermediate Neuter - 3 .18 Open Neuter - 4 Then a spattering of other neuters throughout the group. 1 would go against all other Puppy N's 2 against all other Junior N's etc etc If number 3 took out best neuter of that breed from the intermediate class and all other breed were won by the Open Neuter then the BOB that 3 won would never compete for a "Best in Group" against the other BOB's there is no provision for this to happen. Thanks Megz, that is what I thought you meant the first time. But if that is how it is run, in other words there is no run off in each breed for that particular breed in Group, if multiple neuter classes are offered and entered, there will be multiple Neuter class in group sashes require, yes? Also, if the above is correct, I thought that the wording in the statement "to be judged at breed level" meant that it would be judged in the same fashion as the entires are being judged, which would mean there would be a NIG run off, not just separate classes? Is anyone else having trouble with this, or is it just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Well in the catalogues for this weekend, I have not put a space for best nueter in group but I have allowed a space for Best Junior Neuter and Best Open Neuter....so it looks like I got something right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks Megz, that is what I thought you meant the first time. But if that is how it is run, in other words there is no run off in each breed for that particular breed in Group, if multiple neuter classes are offered and entered, there will be multiple Neuter class in group sashes require, yes? Also, if the above is correct, I thought that the wording in the statement "to be judged at breed level" meant that it would be judged in the same fashion as the entires are being judged, which would mean there would be a NIG run off, not just separate classes? Is anyone else having trouble with this, or is it just me If there are multiple neuter classes then yes there could be class run offs in breed. Lets take the what I would love to see, all 4 neuter classes are offered and there is at least 1 dog and 1 bitch in each class. All of the neuter dog classes are run, the winners of each class then compete for the Neuter Certificate(NC). The judge awards the NC, the second place winner from the NC's class (if there is one)enters the ring. The judge then awards the reserve. The bitch classes then have there turn. The Dog NC and the Bitch NC compete for BNoB, the reserve from the BNoB's sex enters the ring for R/up BNoB. The BNoB and R/up BNoB automatically win their class in breed. If the BNoB comes out of Open Neuter and the R/up comes out of Puppy Neuter then the dog and bitch winners in Junior Neuter run off for Junior Nueter in breed. The same for Intermediate Neuter. The class winners from each of the 4 neuter classes in breed would then compete for their Class in Group against the class winners from every other breed in the group. Ditto for classes in show. The difference between Neuter classes and Entire classes is there is no Best Neuter in Group (or Show) that directly coincides with the Best in Group or Best in Show awards. Could this situation change? Yes Keep your eye on your state journals in the new year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks guys. I have finally got it now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weigirl Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Things must be different in different states re Neuter in Group. I do note in SA that the order we go into the ring with the neuters is different but the only neuter classes offered have been 18 and 18A. I have a bitch and there have been 3 orders we go in: Firstly after the other bitch classes and before the bitch challenge, directly after the bitch challenge and before best of breed or after best of breed. In all shows I have entered we have gone in for neuter in group then the group winner for neuter in show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks Megz, that is what I thought you meant the first time. But if that is how it is run, in other words there is no run off in each breed for that particular breed in Group, if multiple neuter classes are offered and entered, there will be multiple Neuter class in group sashes require, yes? Also, if the above is correct, I thought that the wording in the statement "to be judged at breed level" meant that it would be judged in the same fashion as the entires are being judged, which would mean there would be a NIG run off, not just separate classes? Is anyone else having trouble with this, or is it just me If there are multiple neuter classes then yes there could be class run offs in breed. Lets take the what I would love to see, all 4 neuter classes are offered and there is at least 1 dog and 1 bitch in each class. All of the neuter dog classes are run, the winners of each class then compete for the Neuter Certificate(NC). The judge awards the NC, the second place winner from the NC's class (if there is one)enters the ring. The judge then awards the reserve. The bitch classes then have there turn. The Dog NC and the Bitch NC compete for BNoB, the reserve from the BNoB's sex enters the ring for R/up BNoB. The BNoB and R/up BNoB automatically win their class in breed. If the BNoB comes out of Open Neuter and the R/up comes out of Puppy Neuter then the dog and bitch winners in Junior Neuter run off for Junior Nueter in breed. The same for Intermediate Neuter. The class winners from each of the 4 neuter classes in breed would then compete for their Class in Group against the class winners from every other breed in the group. Ditto for classes in show. The difference between Neuter classes and Entire classes is there is no Best Neuter in Group (or Show) that directly coincides with the Best in Group or Best in Show awards. Could this situation change? Yes Keep your eye on your state journals in the new year. Yes I agree with all that....but I would love to see all the neuter classes judges out the same as we do for the entires. That includes BIG and all group class awards and then onto BIS Neuter and in show class awards for all the neuters classes. As I say so often we need bums on seats and by getting off ours and trying to encourage the neuters to show and provide classes at least we are trying. Yes, it may take some time to catch on but at least we are trying. We need good publicity by the Controling Bodies with promo's sent out on these classes with registration certificates and breeders help on passing it on and informing the new puppy owners of what is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 GRD I have just had conflicting advice from the VCA copied and pasted directly from my email response As I said – only Best Neuter in Group and In Show – no minor classes at all.. just like a Champion class at Open Shows.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 And this was from another person at the same office Yes, they compete for Neuter Best in Group, etc. etc Perhaps the following ANKC Reg will assist: SECTION 3 Neuter Classes (05/01) 3.1 Classes 15, 16, 17 & 18 shall be optional Classes at any ANKC Ltd official show. 3.2 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be ineligible to compete against entire exhibits for Challenge or Best of Breed awards. (Amended 10/09, 8.9) 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. 3.5 Only dogs or bitches registered with an ANKC Ltd Member Body as a “neuter” on the main register shall be eligible to compete in either Class 15,16,17 or 18. (Amended 10/01) 3.6 A neuter is a dog or bitch that has been desexed either by castration or ovarian hysterectomy and is rendered infertile. This does not include vasectomies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 In wa same thing - only one class offered for Neuter... we had 4 weimaraners entered both times, and both times in the catalogue, they were listed together after the entire breed was completed. The judges split them up into dogs and bitches and judged it as NDC and NBC then BNoB, but it wasn't listed in that order in the catalogue. I think the sooner more clarification comes out on the Neuter class, the more chance we have of clubs supporting the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Personally I think the people who put the classes in had the right idea but they cannot be involved in running shows or else they would have put procedures in place and published them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 GRD I have just had conflicting advice from the VCA copied and pasted directly from my email response As I said – only Best Neuter in Group and In Show – no minor classes at all.. just like a Champion class at Open Shows.. They are incorrect, leave it with me. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 And this was from another person at the same office Yes, they compete for Neuter Best in Group, etc. etc Perhaps the following ANKC Reg will assist: SECTION 3 Neuter Classes (05/01) 3.1 Classes 15, 16, 17 & 18 shall be optional Classes at any ANKC Ltd official show. 3.2 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be ineligible to compete against entire exhibits for Challenge or Best of Breed awards. (Amended 10/09, 8.9) 3.3 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at breed level after Best of Breed and any Class elimination judging. 3.4 Classes 15,16,17 & 18 shall be judged at both Group and Show level immediately after Class 11. 3.5 Only dogs or bitches registered with an ANKC Ltd Member Body as a “neuter” on the main register shall be eligible to compete in either Class 15,16,17 or 18. (Amended 10/01) 3.6 A neuter is a dog or bitch that has been desexed either by castration or ovarian hysterectomy and is rendered infertile. This does not include vasectomies The important clause here is 3.4. Nowhere does it say that all of the classes will be bundled together for a Best Neuter in Group or Show award, but each class will be judged at both Group and Show level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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