Why Do Sighthounds Tend To Be Timid/sensitive?

[pipsqueak]

I may be way off track here, but you mention approach and avoidance, and from memory your study involved dogs targetting something for a reward? Is it possible that the sighthounds you tested weren't so much timid, but not motivated by the task and/or reward? I have a sighthound cross, and training her is a challenge... I always get the "what's in it for me" look, or I've done that twice already, why do I have to do it again... just food for thought.

[Kirislin]

I may be way off track here, but you mention approach and avoidance, and from memory your study involved dogs targetting something for a reward? Is it possible that the sighthounds you tested weren't so much timid, but not motivated by the task and/or reward? I have a sighthound cross, and training her is a challenge... I always get the "what's in it for me" look, or I've done that twice already, why do I have to do it again... just food for thought.

If that was the case, if she waved a squealing rabbit in front of them as their reward she'd get a very impressive repsonse

Edited October 10, 2011 by Kirislin

[aussielover]

I think the results were based on a survey. There was a link to the survery here a few months ago I think asking people to do it.

I think with questionnaires you get some reporting errors- people mmisinterpreting their dogs body language etc.

Also I don't think the opposite of boldness is timidity. I think "cautious" or "considered" is more descriptive of the opposite to boldness (jmo).

Most of the greyhounds I have seen have not been timid but then I don't really see that many out and about, most of the time it has been in a clinic setting or friends dogs, where they seem very relaxed.

Some whippets I have seen appear to be timid in their body posture but are actually not and will run around like mad things being chased by other dogs, teasing them, knowing they will never be caught

[corvus]

Okay...

1. That most of the sighthounds in my survey were ex-racers is a massive assumption and one that can't be supported.

2. Age was looked at, but not within breeds or breed groups. Not enough numbers.

3. Socialisation is not quantifiable when it was done by a thousand different people in a thousand different places and is not even known in many cases.

4. I did not ask about predatory behaviour because NOTHING is shy when in predatory drive.

5. It was a loaded question and for that I apologise, but it is much more useful to give as little information as possible and then cherry pick broad concepts to follow up on in the literature. Not that there is much scientific support for breed or breed group temperaments. I'm sorry if people felt offended. I won't ask any more loaded questions if it upsets people.

6. I found that Blackwell paper very interesting.

[corvus]

Incidentally, the star of my first pilot study was a greyhound. I'm still in awe of how thoroughly he mastered that task. No dog I've done since could hold a candle to him. He was something else.

[Alyosha]

I don't think it was a loaded question that offended, it was the fact that you seemed to be exploring and researching a generalisation about the breed group that the vast majority of owners/breeders etc found partially or even completely incorrect.

So if the foundation information appears so far from reality, what sort of useful inferences are ever going to be drawn from it?

[Greytmate]

Corvus, what are the guardian or other breeds that scored highly in boldness?

There are certain behaviours in dogs that greyhounds don't tend to have for various reasons. Protecting territory isn't usually a high priority for instance.

I think whenever we talk dog behaviour, terminology is sometimes a massive obstacle that is not always overcome.

[espinay2]

......Then I extracted the most meaningful component, looked at the questions that it was most strongly related to, compared that to previous studies, and gave it a name (boldness). Then I extracted boldness scores for every dog in the study and fitted a straight line between those boldness scores and various different factors I thought might affect the boldness scores. .....End result: Sighthounds have a lower boldness score as a group than most other groups.

As mentioned, the opposite of boldness is not timidity. You may get similar results from certain groups of working livestock guardians if what you are looking at is a reserved, aloof or 'uninterested' response to humans in some situations.

I've always had sighthounds and any visitors we have or people we meet when we're out and about are pretty much mobbed.

I can vouch for that one!!

Well, it all boils down to approach/avoidance, really.

Something seen in many working LGD too. For example, Two Pyreneans recently bringing a flock of sheep down the mountain in the French Pyrenees, ignoring cars and people taking photos and cyclists, and even ignoring the bread held out by one cyclist to tempt them to come closer. The dogs were focussed on what they were doing, and the people were just 'there' - to be noted and assessed, but basically assessed as unimportant to them so are then ignored. By your scale they would likely be rated as 'timid' when they were really far from it. Photos of the dogs here so you can see context:

https://picasaweb.google.com/JanetandJoan/WorkingDogsInFrance?authkey=Gv1sRgCOD2kYqL5P3A8AE&feat=email

[fifi]

I don't think it was a loaded question that offended, it was the fact that you seemed to be exploring and researching a generalisation about the breed group that the vast majority of owners/breeders etc found partially or even completely incorrect.

So if the foundation information appears so far from reality, what sort of useful inferences are ever going to be drawn from it?

Another excellent post Aloysha

Corvus, I guess if the question had been worded "Do sighthound owners find their breeds have a tendency to timidity"

It would not have felt like you had reached a forgone conclusion based on a generalition.

fifi

[raineth]

I don't think it was a loaded question that offended, it was the fact that you seemed to be exploring and researching a generalisation about the breed group that the vast majority of owners/breeders etc found partially or even completely incorrect.

So if the foundation information appears so far from reality, what sort of useful inferences are ever going to be drawn from it?

Another excellent post Aloysha

Corvus, I guess if the question had been worded "Do sighthound owners find their breeds have a tendency to timidity"

It would not have felt like you had reached a forgone conclusion based on a generalition.

fifi

well not really... because it was an exploratory question taht was based on research she had done that showed sighthounds to be lower on the scale of "boldness" having found that, why would she come on here and ask that question?

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

[fifi]

Then I guess you'd have to look at the development of the sighthound breeds for their individual purposes.

fifi

[Greytmate]

I don't think it was a loaded question that offended, it was the fact that you seemed to be exploring and researching a generalisation about the breed group that the vast majority of owners/breeders etc found partially or even completely incorrect.

So if the foundation information appears so far from reality, what sort of useful inferences are ever going to be drawn from it?

Another excellent post Aloysha

Corvus, I guess if the question had been worded "Do sighthound owners find their breeds have a tendency to timidity"

It would not have felt like you had reached a forgone conclusion based on a generalition.

fifi

well not really... because it was an exploratory question taht was based on research she had done that showed sighthounds to be lower on the scale of "boldness" having found that, why would she come on here and ask that question?

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

She didn't do a very good job of communicating that intent.

I value Corvus's research highly, I'm just trying to get my head around it all.

Alternative ways to describe concepts like boldness, timidity and sensitivity should be discussed, as the words are loaded with a deeper meaning and carry a clear value judgement.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm going to chalk this one up to more academic codswallop

[pixie_meg]

Corvus, i'm not offended either, but felt the need to state my observations. I think this thread is valuable in educating people about sighthound nature. It is quite different to other groups of dog.

[Alyosha]

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

And if nearly all the sighthound people on here answered with - they're not - then where to from there? Does the research continue stubbornly along those lines anyway in the face of such overwhelming doubt cast over the initial question?

[Greytmate]

I'm going to chalk this one up to more academic codswallop

You could do that.

I will put it down to scientists being quite ok at research but generally quite poor at communicating ideas effectively.

[poodlefan]

well not really... because it was an exploratory question taht was based on research she had done that showed sighthounds to be lower on the scale of "boldness" having found that, why would she come on here and ask that question?

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

Given that some sighthound breeds weren't included in that study, most of us had issues with the generalisation. Ex racing greyhounds aren't what I'd call indicative the temperament of all sighthounds.

What was the 'test'.. if it required approaching the tester for a treat.. quite a few ex-racers probably don't know what a treat is. And failure to approach may indicate disinterest, not timidity.

[Greytmate]

Corvus, imagine doing a study on canine nutrition and coming in here and starting a topic "Why are gun dogs so fat?"

All of your research will be wasted if people don't want to hear it.

[raineth]

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

And if nearly all the sighthound people on here answered with - they're not - then where to from there? Does the research continue stubbornly along those lines anyway in the face of such overwhelming doubt cast over the initial question?

but you can always find people who disagree with research - should researcher's throw out their work when someone disagrees?

Maybe when the paper is all written and finished Corvus could give people a copy, then when you have all the information that is in the report you will be able to make a judgement on the validity of the research.

[raineth]

well not really... because it was an exploratory question taht was based on research she had done that showed sighthounds to be lower on the scale of "boldness" having found that, why would she come on here and ask that question?

She wanted to see if anyone had ideas on why they might be lower on the boldness scale - not people opinions on whether they were or not.

Given that some sighthound breeds weren't included in that study, most of us had issues with the generalisation. Ex racing greyhounds aren't what I'd call indicative the temperament of all sighthounds.

What was the 'test'.. if it required approaching the tester for a treat.. quite a few ex-racers probably don't know what a treat is. And failure to approach may indicate disinterest, not timidity.

I think Corvus had already said the majority were not ex racing greys?