Early Desexing

[OSoSwift]

Is there an issues from desexing down the line if a Tubal ligation is done when they pup is young, and then desexed when older. As in from adhesions and scaring causing the surgery to be more difficult. I would imagine not, but just wondering.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia.

Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior?

They still have seasons and will mate so have to be treated like an entire bitch in that respect and they can also still get Pyometra

Edited October 12, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Saffioraire]

Saffioraire I think you are taking a bit of a lend of yourself.

One hand you are claiming that you have a "rare" breed and are prepared to let second rate examples of the breed go out there.

On the other you are saying that you have the best interests of the dog in mind.

Paediatric desexing has many side effects the worst one being death, and this is not uncommon. Its not talked about because most paediatric desexing is done on pound dogs and hey what's another death.

If you really had the best interests of your pups in mind you would screen the prospective new owners carefully and build a relationship with them,then they would go to the right homes.

You claim you have a "rare" breed but are not prepared to expand the gene pool, this being extremely elitist and again does not do the breed any justice.

And do forget that you bred White German Shepherds before you imported this dog. They are genetically the same dog. I believe you exported one of your pups to Europe and it was then rebranded as White Swiss Shepherd.

Do you really want me to get started on people breeding second rate examples of a breed?!

I always have the best interests of the dog in mind and heart. Say what you like about me, but this is fact hard and cold. If I did not care I would not search for alternate opinions and options.

Not sure what you are talking about letting "second rate examples" go out. I truly hope you are not suggesting that ANY pup bred in my kennel would be second rate, as all pups I breed will be done so with the utmost care and research. You would also be insulting the European breeders of our dogs, as so far we are really only building upon their hard work! There is a difference between desexing a puppy because it is second rate, and because you do not want it to fall into the hands of someone who is not as responsible as yourself. I wish to PREVENT irresponsible breeding which is in my opinion people who breed for reasons other then to better the ANKC White Swiss Shepherd breed.

I do screen my buyers as closely as possible, and still keep in touch with almost all owners of previous puppies I have sold, including pups who went under someone elses Kennel prefix as someone elses dogs. Unfortunately there are always people who will deceive you, or who will later have their minds changed, a situation contracts rarely rectify. So to avoid any possible exploitation of my pups I look to means beyond this. You may have missed also that I am looking to this ONLY for pups who are beyond reasonable viewing distance, ie interstate.

White Swiss Shepherd Dogs are rare in Australia, and I am committed to the responsible and well thought out expansion of the breed, breeding for numbers is not necessarily breeding for better. I am at a loss to see how I am not willing to expand the gene pool when I have imported 2 dogs and 2 lots of semen, with one more lot of semen on the way. All in the past 2.5 years. ALL Genetically independent of each other!

I do not forget where I came from, I bred Australian White German Shepherds - a breed that is in fact genetically different to the European White Swiss Shepherd Dog. I did what I did BEFORE I was informed of many pieces of information which caused me to cease this. Can one not be forgiven for choices they made under the guise of misinformation?

So, if you are done with attacks of my character, back to the original point of this thread...

(Edited for spelling)

Edited October 12, 2011 by Saffioraire

[BJean]

Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree

Which means there is no difference.

It is not about upsetting my apple cart as it is about the dogs welfare. You may think they cannot be "bred in cages" but this is not so, there are several breeders in VIC, (as well as other states) that do so quite successfully. One particular one of whom I have encountered several of their dogs, all as rescues. One 'rescue' was almost 12 months, was initially unable to be touched, COULD NOT RUN as he was caged in a crate the best part of his life and the owner advised me that they come on heat every 6 months and it was a good cash cow!

I have already had this person call the VCA White Swiss Association asking for ANKC entire adult dogs for sale..... need I go on?!

If breeding is so dangerous

why do you do it?

After working at a Vets I have seen the suffering many dogs endure as a result of their owners ignorance. Regardless of whether a girl is bred once or 6 times, if she dies in whelp or loses all of her puppies because she accidentally rolls on one and the owners lock her outside away from her 2 day old pups because she is "intentionally killing them" (true story) and I could have prevented this, then I have not done my job as a breeder to protect my pup.

The above story relates to a breeder's ability to form relationship with the puppy home,

and can hardly be depicted as an example of 'breeding bitch welfare'. More like dumb home occurrence - which is independent of dog/bitch or breeding ability.

Edited October 12, 2011 by lilli

[Saffioraire]

I see what you are saying 'Ososwift'.

After a lot more research, reading and discussion today it seems for breeds such as Shepherds, the lack of relevant hormones caused from early desexing, causing late closure of growth plates - is harm that outweighs any benefit from early desexing (in both males and females). Early desexing is considered age 10 weeks, however it was suggested that even the benchmark of 6 months is also far too young - as many others have suggested on here also.

Tubal Ligation may be suitable for an older bitch, but was considered a far too risky and possibly fruitless procedure to be done on a female pup of 10weeks. Vasectomy however was said to be perfectly fine for a male pup of the same age. Given that TL also lends to the female being susceptible to the same medical issues her entire counterpart is, it seems the benefit from the procedure is to inhibit breeding. Unless of course she was then desexed at 12 months (as you were saying? Ososwift). There is much research to suggest that each season increases risk of mammary cancer etc, and age also (in an entire female). Which is why Vets suggest desexing retired brood bitches.

So I think I will definitely increase my contracted age of desexing for Vic owners to 13months, to allow owners to choose to let their pups reach a more suitable level of maturity before removing hormones from the body.

It seems as though the only viable option so far is to only allow males to leave to interstate homes, done so with a vasectomy, to be desexed at the new owners discretion. !!! I suppose then there are other contractual options, like not signing over the ANKC or Microchip papers until proof of desexing was provided (is this legal?). We also thought about the desexing levy ie. $200 which will be refunded to the VET at the time of procedure as (partial) payment for desexing, with any remainder refunded to the owner. Or even organising future desexing with a particular reputable Vet in the new owners area, with the desexing fee to be taken at time of purchase and paid to the Vet at time of procedure?

Does anyone already practice these methods? And if so with how much success?

[Saffioraire]

Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree

Which means there is no difference.

The difference MEANS an ANKC pedigree, not the difference IS an ANKC pedigree. Read the sentence again.

There is a difference, quite a marked one. But that is not what we are here to argue - if you wish to press this point there are 2 White Shepherd Threads in General Discussion and a WSSD thread in Breeds 101

[BJean]

Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree

Which means there is no difference.

The difference MEANS an ANKC pedigree, not the difference IS an ANKC pedigree. Read the sentence again.

The initial reference was to do with morphology and physical capacity - so in the context of the OP discussion, ANKC pedigree has nothing to do with it and is no point of difference.

There is a difference, quite a marked one. But that is not what we are here to argue - if you wish to press this point there are 2 White Shepherd Threads in General Discussion and a WSSD thread in Breeds 101

I dont buy in to colour determining a new breed from the same genetic base, because an ANKC pedigree paper says it is so;

the kangal retardation in Australia being a prime example.

If White GSD and WSS are a separate breed

then there is no need for an ANKC pedigree to determine one from the other.

Edited October 12, 2011 by lilli

[Saffioraire]

Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree

Which means there is no difference.

The difference MEANS an ANKC pedigree, not the difference IS an ANKC pedigree. Read the sentence again.

The initial reference was to do with morphology and physical capacity - so in the context of the OP discussion, ANKC pedigree has nothing to do with it and is no point of difference.

There is a difference, quite a marked one. But that is not what we are here to argue - if you wish to press this point there are 2 White Shepherd Threads in General Discussion and a WSSD thread in Breeds 101

I dont buy in to colour determining a new breed from the same genetic base, because an ANKC pedigree paper says it is so;

the kangal retardation in Australia being a prime example.

If White GSD and WSS are a separate breed

then there is no need for an ANKC pedigree to determine one from the other.

You clearly don't understand what I am trying to say. There is much more to the difference of breed than colour. I am happy to mail you both standards if you need?

And as I said this is not the place for the discussion. I am happy to talk with you on it someplace else.

[OSoSwift]

Yep personally I see the only benefit from TL is an inability for them to produce puppies.

I also would not have a bitch with a TL and not desex her once mature due to other inconviences - seasons, and potential illnesses - pyometra.

Myself I will not desex a bitch until mature, but once she is mature or will no longer be used for breeding she will be desexed.

[Fanuilos]

We also thought about the desexing levy ie. $200 which will be refunded to the VET at the time of procedure as (partial) payment for desexing, with any remainder refunded to the owner. Or even organising future desexing with a particular reputable Vet in the new owners area, with the desexing fee to be taken at time of purchase and paid to the Vet at time of procedure?

Does anyone already practice these methods? And if so with how much success?

We have a desexing rebate for all our pups, which is $200 as per our contract. We've never had any pups from any of our litters bred when we didn't want them to be. All the owners have desexed their pups when they have felt it was right for them and their situation, we do advise that they wait 12 months or do it as close to 12 months as possible. When people are paying 'their good money' for a pup, they don't necessarily want a breeder telling them when (and where) they do things. Some people are against desexing regardless of when and that doesn't make them bad owners who are going to randomly breed their dogs or exploit them.

We've never had a pup end up in an undesirable breeding home, actually we've only had 2 litters produced from any of our pups and those have both been dogs as stud, with our full knowledge and we knew it would happen before the dog was placed.

There is a lot to be said about establishing and maintaining excellent relationships with puppy families rather than using the big stick of threats and contracts. Some times people agree to contracts as they desperately want a puppy and having a breeder come back and hit you with that stick down the track and get nasty over it all can/would be pretty upsetting especially if they start threatening to take the dog back.

[espinay2]

Best laid plans can go awry. I know personally of a case where the breeder was taken for a ride well and truly by a 'happy family' (child included) and recieved regular updates on the pup in it's new home .... Even though the pup had been shipped to a Singapore pet shop as soon as they got it! Was only through a lucky set of coincidences that the breeder found out and traced the pup. While this is not common I will admit it does go to show that the best screening in the world does not always work if someone really wants to decieve.

An interesting thought about TL/V is that as it doesn't replace desexing for the owner and if all it does is prevent breeding then as an expense it really is something that should not be passed on through increased purchase price. The breeder wears the extra cost as it is being done really for their benefit alone. As someone mentioned it is then the owners choice to desex or not or desexing can be recommended for later based on other benefits desexing brings. While both do prevent breeding that seems to be the only thing they have in common so as The two operations do not achieve the same outcomes they should be considered two different things.

FWIW and not sure if I am making sense

[Christina]

Paediatric desexing has many side effects the worst one being death, and this is not uncommon. Its not talked about because most paediatric desexing is done on pound dogs and hey what's another death.

The above quote really suprises me. All my kittens are desexed at a kilo minimum weight at around 10 to 12 weeks old & most of the cat breeders I know also do this. I also have my toy pups desexed early. Never heard of any that have died while being desexed. For the males especially they are out knocked out for a really short time frame.

A healthy young animal should survive a short anaesthetic without a problem generally.

Maybe the problem in the pound dogs is that they are not healthy & robust or that corners are cut & its rushed ?

I would not factor fear of death into this decision, it should not be common if all is done well & correctly.

[SwaY]

It seems as though the only viable option so far is to only allow males to leave to interstate homes, done so with a vasectomy, to be desexed at the new owners discretion. !!! I suppose then there are other contractual options, like not signing over the ANKC or Microchip papers until proof of desexing was provided (is this legal?)

No it is not legal.

We also thought about the desexing levy ie. $200 which will be refunded to the VET at the time of procedure as (partial) payment for desexing, with any remainder refunded to the owner. Or even organising future desexing with a particular reputable Vet in the new owners area, with the desexing fee to be taken at time of purchase and paid to the Vet at time of procedure?

Does anyone already practice these methods? And if so with how much success?

I offer a $250 refund upon proof of desexing ie. photocopy of the vet desexing certificate.

I can either pay the owners or the vet direct.

100% success rate to date.

I feel if you make the refund a decent amount you have more chance of them following though, however if I did not think they would desex they would not get a pup to start with.

ETA My contract says they must be de-sexed between 9-12 months of age.

I am in close contact with my puppy buyers, I see each pup several times a year and we have a yearly family reunion.

I would soon find out if there was an un-desexed pup.

Edited October 14, 2011 by SwaY

[Leema]

Tubal Ligation may be suitable for an older bitch, but was considered a far too risky and possibly fruitless procedure to be done on a female pup of 10weeks.

Who considered it too risky? What do you mean by 'fruitless'?