Early Desexing

[Saffioraire]

It has been bought up in General Discussion but I want breeders POV.

I'm not uneducated for the basic pro's/ con's of pubescent desexing, but since becoming involved in a breed which faces possible exploitation as a result of their 'rarity' the question now resounds;

Is it CRUELER on the dog to desex it early (10 weeks), or for it to fall into the wrong hands and become a breeding machine?

My inability to answer this question (or find concrete science to sway me) has made me decide that pups I cannot observe as a result of distance, (ie. interstate pups) will be desexed at 9-10 weeks before they are sold to their new homes.

I HATE that I am choosing to do this, and I am also asking for a contract to be signed in the presence of a JP, but I cannot see any other guarantee of their wellbeing. People will say ANYTHING to get a pup and disregard contracts (as was displayed shamelessly on the General Discussion board recently) if they so please, so the only definite prevention is removing their ability to breed.

My only other option would be vasectomy & tube tying - have any breeders opted for this? Can it be reversed easily? (Can you tell them the pup is desexed in this case?) Is it reliable and how does it compare in price?

It is a difficult ethical question I am losing sleep over

[lils mum]

Something to help your deliberations

http://dpctz.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

I'm not as convinced as some others that Christine Zink is a guru, but FWIW, this is a new-ish paper from her

[SwaY]

My only other option would be vasectomy & tube tying - have any breeders opted for this? Can it be reversed easily? (Can you tell them the pup is desexed in this case?) Is it reliable and how does it compare in price?

There has been a few threads on vasectomies and tubals - I wold rather that then early de-sexing.

[Belljari]

I feel your pain Saffioraire. Iam unsure of what Iam going to do with this litter pups my girl is expecting in Nov. I have asked a number of breeders what they do as Cavaliers are a very popular breed, there seems many backyarders and of course the cross breeders. I don't want any of my pups to fall into the wrong hands.

Most of the people I have talked to do work from a contract and some refund their puppy people the desexing cost and have had positive results with doing this.

For me Iam a bit like you and feel desexing them before they leave is the answer what worries me is the problems they may face as a result of doing this. I wasn't really thinking behaviour problems more urinary type or other health problems.

Because Iam asking people what they do I have had a few stories of dogs desexed at a younger age and one bigger cross mastiff girl had urine leakage all her life and was medication that didn't help much. I don't know for a cavalier being smaller this would apply?

I met this lovely lady at the vets a few weeks back for Sunni's prog test and really some of the general public have know idea. She was there because her JRT had started bleeding and she didn't at first know why or what was wrong with her. I thought to myself how could you not know but there are people out there like her and how easy it would have for her get an accidental mating. She was going to desex her which was great but had she not gone to the vet to find out more puppies that potentially unwanted.

Ive got the vet coming today and I thought I might ask as they do alot of rescue pups and dogs what they think.

I will be interested also in what others are doing..

Edited October 9, 2011 by Belljari

[Leema]

If I had a breed that I was concerned about ending up into the 'wrong hands', I would opt for tubal ligation or vasectomies of the puppies.

I am sure vets would provide a certificate saying the dog has been sterilised that you can then hand on to puppy buyers. Obviously, ethically, the breeder should tell puppy buyers of the procedure having taken place.

Tubal ligation/vasecomties of puppies should be considered permanent and non-reversible. It is a reliable (i.e. pups having undergone the procedure cannot have puppies).

I am not sure on price.

I think puppies have to be 9-10 weeks for the operation.

[oakway]

I fully appreciate and understand your position.

I have followed this subject over the years and can only report back as to what I have found, weather others like it or not.

First, I have never found early de sexing to cause growth problems, with the exception of giant breeds and then that can pose it's own problems with giant breeds needing careful care in raising them, which MAY also pose it's own problems, again which MAY also cause conflictions in their development. Now lets not start a confliction of interest with Giant breed owners but as I see it many giant breeds are de sexed early without any problems BUT have been carefully raised by their owners.

So maybe care and diet maybe the big factors in the raising of any breed/breeds that is early se sexed. My sympathies to giant breed owners you are surely in a dilemma.

Their are so many factors as to why we sell those particular puppies in our litters as pets and as many as to why we keep some pups for future breeding and or showing.

It can be all to complicated for the laymen.

But for me and you it is fairly easy to decide who stays and goes. Now before we go any further I must say I have kept many a pup that has grown to tall for the showring and it was then de sexed and placed in a pet home. Now my argument is if I had early de sexed and placed that particular pup in a pet home would many have said that it was to tall because I early se sexed it.

Well not in this case. So we are back to square one because the litter mates that were se sexed appear to have grown well and pose no growth or developmental problems. So I say go for it and early de sex at least we don't have them appearing in puppy farms or BYB’s because we were conned by unscrupulous persons.

If I have to protect my breed by early de sexing so be it!!!. At least I will never have to worry about it turning up where I wouldn't want it.

If by some chance it should turn out a little bit different from its showing ring brother or sister so be it, after all it was sold as a pet and has no guarantee that it will be of excellent conformation, that's why I parted with it in the first place.

Let's face it, de sexing contracts don't work in many cases.

Many breeders are now opting for Tubal Ligation as this we are told does not cause growth problems. (if there is one in the first place)

Allways remember the RSPCA have been early de sexing for years.

I believe if we can cut down on the amount of pure bred pups that find their way into puppy farms or BYB’s then we have done the dog world a good service.

[WreckitWhippet]

I priced tubal ligation/vasectomy at my vets and there was no difference in the price, compared to desexing a pup at 8-10 weeks and they considered it permanent.

[BJean]

It has been bought up in General Discussion but I want breeders POV.

I'm not uneducated for the basic pro's/ con's of pubescent desexing, but since becoming involved in a breed which faces possible exploitation as a result of their 'rarity' the question now resounds;

Is it CRUELER on the dog to desex it early (10 weeks), or for it to fall into the wrong hands and become a breeding machine?

My inability to answer this question (or find concrete science to sway me) has made me decide that pups I cannot observe as a result of distance, (ie. interstate pups) will be desexed at 9-10 weeks before they are sold to their new homes.

I HATE that I am choosing to do this, and I am also asking for a contract to be signed in the presence of a JP, but I cannot see any other guarantee of their wellbeing. People will say ANYTHING to get a pup and disregard contracts (as was displayed shamelessly on the General Discussion board recently) if they so please, so the only definite prevention is removing their ability to breed.

My only other option would be vasectomy & tube tying - have any breeders opted for this? Can it be reversed easily? (Can you tell them the pup is desexed in this case?) Is it reliable and how does it compare in price?

It is a difficult ethical question I am losing sleep over

Generally if you are losing sleep over something then you are not happy with the situation.

Stop listening to what others think, and start listening to what your own self thinks.

On 'exploitation' woot woot

seriously, I dont think White GSDs can be farmed / kept in cages and bred with success

like the little dog.

Yes someone can breed with one of your pups and you might detest their breeding practices, they might even have an unregistered litter, or few

but apart from upsetting your own apple cart

you cannot say that the dog was treated cruely or died a bad end

because it was bred and you did not want it to be.

[espinay2]

I feel your pain Saffoiraire, as it is one I have struggled with. There are quite a few in my breed that have early desexed for nearly 20 years and have been very happy with the procedure - they have kept good records and slightly taller dogs (more length in long bones) was the main difference in some cases, but not enough to cause any issues. I am on the fence, but do feel I would definitely consider getting it done in some situations though it is far from my preference. Leaning more towards tubal/vasectomy though at this stage as a possible alternative though haven't done enough research on this at this point. All about risk management in the end and your own personal risk assessment will be what guides you to make a decision for any individual dog.At this point a really don't feel there is a right or wrong answer, though some will argue strongly on either side of the debate.

Edited October 10, 2011 by espinay2

[Saffioraire]

It has been bought up in General Discussion but I want breeders POV.

I'm not uneducated for the basic pro's/ con's of pubescent desexing, but since becoming involved in a breed which faces possible exploitation as a result of their 'rarity' the question now resounds;

Is it CRUELER on the dog to desex it early (10 weeks), or for it to fall into the wrong hands and become a breeding machine?

My inability to answer this question (or find concrete science to sway me) has made me decide that pups I cannot observe as a result of distance, (ie. interstate pups) will be desexed at 9-10 weeks before they are sold to their new homes.

I HATE that I am choosing to do this, and I am also asking for a contract to be signed in the presence of a JP, but I cannot see any other guarantee of their wellbeing. People will say ANYTHING to get a pup and disregard contracts (as was displayed shamelessly on the General Discussion board recently) if they so please, so the only definite prevention is removing their ability to breed.

My only other option would be vasectomy & tube tying - have any breeders opted for this? Can it be reversed easily? (Can you tell them the pup is desexed in this case?) Is it reliable and how does it compare in price?

It is a difficult ethical question I am losing sleep over

Generally if you are losing sleep over something then you are not happy with the situation.

Stop listening to what others think, and start listening to what your own self thinks.

On 'exploitation' woot woot

seriously, I dont think White GSDs can be farmed / kept in cages and bred with success

like the little dog.

Yes someone can breed with one of your pups and you might detest their breeding practices, they might even have an unregistered litter, or few

but apart from upsetting your own apple cart

you cannot say that the dog was treated cruely or died a bad end

because it was bred and you did not want it to be.

Just in response to this for the moment. Firstly they are White Swiss not White GSD's with the difference meaning an ANKC pedigree

It is not about upsetting my apple cart as it is about the dogs welfare. You may think they cannot be "bred in cages" but this is not so, there are several breeders in VIC, (as well as other states) that do so quite successfully. One particular one of whom I have encountered several of their dogs, all as rescues. One 'rescue' was almost 12 months, was initially unable to be touched, COULD NOT RUN as he was caged in a crate the best part of his life and the owner advised me that they come on heat every 6 months and it was a good cash cow!

I have already had this person call the VCA White Swiss Association asking for ANKC entire adult dogs for sale..... need I go on?!

After working at a Vets I have seen the suffering many dogs endure as a result of their owners ignorance. Regardless of whether a girl is bred once or 6 times, if she dies in whelp or loses all of her puppies because she accidentally rolls on one and the owners lock her outside away from her 2 day old pups because she is "intentionally killing them" (true story) and I could have prevented this, then I have not done my job as a breeder to protect my pup.

I am now looking further into tubal ligatures/ vasectomy in comparison to desexing, and will go from there.

[Dogsfevr]

we have a 100% success rate on spay contracts but wouldn't hesitate to do either option at 8/10 weeks .

Our breed is highly sort after for DD,BYB & is crossed with any thing & every thing.

Always seen advertised in Pet shops & always sold at puppy farms both pure & crossed.

All the good breeders we now of in our breed do the same .

[Saffioraire]

we have a 100% success rate on spay contracts but wouldn't hesitate to do either option at 8/10 weeks .

Our breed is highly sort after for DD,BYB & is crossed with any thing & every thing.

Always seen advertised in Pet shops & always sold at puppy farms both pure & crossed.

All the good breeders we now of in our breed do the same .

Is your breed small, medium or large? I have found some really interesting literature however it seems more highly researched on smaller dogs.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I have a meduim sized breed and will be desexing all pet puppies before they are rehomed. My breeder has been desexing at 10 - 12 weeks for many years and has had no devastating bad stories, I think each person must research and do what is best for them and the breed they are dealing with.

[Steve]

For me the answers came when I considered what a lack of the hormones have been proven to do in dogs and other mammals.Fact is lack of estrogen and testosterone does cause health issues and does affect longevity.

My decision probably would have been impacted by other things if I had a different breed - so for example if I had a breed that was more prone than most to Hip /joint problems.I would be less eager to do it. The research and results from our breed survey which has been running now for 2 years appears to suggest that there may be a higher risk of a dog especially a male dog developing HD if its desexed early. Problem is the same as it is with most things. Its hard to get the info because in order to do that it has to correlated with something else.

If you desex a dog and in 12 months its got HD do we blame the owner, the breeder or the hormones? Is the risk of that the same in all breeds or is it igher in those which may have a higher than average breed disposition to it etc.

Vasectomy and tubals sound good but lots of people want dogs desexed not just to stop unwanted pregnancies but in order to prevent anti social behaviour , escaping,leg cocking, etc

In alll honesty whether or not someone has a litter from it when they shouldnt isnt really something that worries me too much because I think there are many health issues a dog can suffer with throughout its life time which may be impacted by lack of hormones especially through its high growth stage .I have assessed the risk of unwanted puppies in my breeds to be a lessor risk factor and made my decision based on that.

I guess what Im trying to say is I dont think there is any right or wrong answer . Whether a dog has a litter that I as a breder would prefer it didnt have after it goes to a new home is as far as Im concerned an issue of ethics for the new owner.I have ethical decisions to make in order to keep them healthy and ensure there is nothing I do which impacts in any negative way on their health.

I see the potential for someone breeding one of the dogs I bred when Id rather they didnt as a lessor evil.

[OSoSwift]

Is there an issues from desexing down the line if a Tubal ligation is done when they pup is young, and then desexed when older. As in from adhesions and scaring causing the surgery to be more difficult. I would imagine not, but just wondering.

[Saffioraire]

Is there an issues from desexing down the line if a Tubal ligation is done when they pup is young, and then desexed when older. As in from adhesions and scaring causing the surgery to be more difficult. I would imagine not, but just wondering.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia.

Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior?

[SwaY]

Is there an issues from desexing down the line if a Tubal ligation is done when they pup is young, and then desexed when older. As in from adhesions and scaring causing the surgery to be more difficult. I would imagine not, but just wondering.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia.

Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior?

Tubal ligation doesn't prevent a bitch from having seasons.

I wonder if the council will accept tubal ligation as desexed in terms of registering for a discounted fee?

[Saffioraire]

Is there an issues from desexing down the line if a Tubal ligation is done when they pup is young, and then desexed when older. As in from adhesions and scaring causing the surgery to be more difficult. I would imagine not, but just wondering.

I wouldn't imagine so. Apart from the scarring on the site of incision? And of course the risk of undergoing anesthesia.

Why would you consider both? Initial to prevent breeding and secondary to adress behavior?

Tubal ligation doesn't prevent a bitch from having seasons.

I wonder if the council will accept tubal ligation as desexed in terms of registering for a discounted fee?

Ok, see this is where I am having problems. Plenty of info on the desex or not to desex debate but I am struggling to find reputable sources of information on the pro's and con's of tubal ligation.

Do you have links or articles that go into this Sway?

If not that's fine, I will keep looking.

It becomes a different argument when TL goes from being 'eliminates breeding ability without inhibiting hormones' to 'TL inhibits breeding but the bitch still cycles and behaves as an entire'. If I were to own a bitch as a pet there is no way in Nelly that I would want her cycling! I do think behavior does come into it strongly, and the outcome would affect the dogs welfare. We have a Kelpie x bitch who was spayed later in life, and she still cocks her leg and wee's over everyone elses 'marks'! Can be a right mole too! We love her, but this attitude in a typical family environment would be too trying for most. (Of course it very well could be the dog and not the desexing, I am aware of that!)

[Leema]

A puppy that has tubal ligation / vasectomy will develop as a normal, entire puppy.

If the puppy's new owner decides that they would like to desex their puppy (i.e. remove their gonads), then they can do so.

If you are concerned about a puppy going to a home that it may reproduce, then a tubal ligation, vasectomy, or desexing will stop puppies being produced by your puppies. However, there are some health issues associated with early age desexing. There is not much research on tubal ligation or vasectomies on dogs.

Additionally, there are some health issues associated with desexing, full stop (i.e. early age or mature age), and that would be the puppy owner's decision - to decide what health issues / behavioural issues they are willing to have with either side of the decision.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Saffioraire I think you are taking a bit of a lend of yourself.

One hand you are claiming that you have a "rare" breed and are prepared to let second rate examples of the breed go out there.

On the other you are saying that you have the best interests of the dog in mind.

Paediatric desexing has many side effects the worst one being death, and this is not uncommon. Its not talked about because most paediatric desexing is done on pound dogs and hey what's another death.

If you really had the best interests of your pups in mind you would screen the prospective new owners carefully and build a relationship with them,then they would go to the right homes.

You claim you have a "rare" breed but are not prepared to expand the gene pool, this being extremely elitist and again does not do the breed any justice.

And do forget that you bred White German Shepherds before you imported this dog. They are genetically the same dog. I believe you exported one of your pups to Europe and it was then rebranded as White Swiss Shepherd.