Question About De-sexing

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

While I wouldn't desex a puppy at 8 weeks, if a breeder was doing so, then I would probably ask them for their own personal reasons why. Like some people have shared here they may have had lots of poor experiences with people breeding after they have said they wouldn't. At least the breeder is still trying to do the right thing.

I think the other aspect is that, perhaps not with breeders who have been in the loop for a long time, but to general dog owners - early dexesing has been driven home very hard. I myself didn't know there were any drawbacks to early dexesing until this year, thanks to all of the info that encourages desexing and doing so early. Eight years ago, my vet supported desexing Zeke at four months of age, so that's the age he was done at - it was only when I began talking to large dog breeders this year, and researching the issue, I found any mention of desexing after maturity.

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt purchase from the breeder. There are breeders that perform tubal ligations on their limited register dogs to allow them to develop normally but not be bred from.

What type of GSD are you after? PM me I know a few breeders around the traps with different types.

[pepe001]

As you said the RSPCA desexes all their kittens and puppies before they are rehomed. So this is around 8 weeks for many. I was told they considered the numbers of their previously- homed puppies (now dogs) coming back with litters to be too high to take the risk any more. Apparenmtly they lose some puppies (ie die during surgery), but not too many - that is what a RSPCA vet told me one day when I asked him about it.

AS for there being a GDS that is so rare you can't find another breeder - no such thing. There are many show-line breeders, many working-line breeders and quite a few white shepherd breeders. What other type is there???

Edited October 11, 2011 by pepe001

[jacqui835]

I don't know if it's the same with cats, but very recently I took a young kitten to the vet to try and have him desexed at 3 months old. Many of you will know that I don't believe desexing is always necessary for dogs if you can train and contain your dog - and if it works in other countries (the Netherlands etc) then why should it be different here? Preventing irresponsible people from breeding dogs though is a completely separate issue - though I would still argue that you would struggle to justify the necessity to desex puppies so young.

Anyway, with cats, because they're more independent and self-serving, I like to have them desexed as young as possible so they want to wander less and fight less with other cats. My vet however told me he would no longer be performing the procedure before 6 months. He had performed 1000's of procedures on cats and dogs for the RSPCA, registered breeders trying to protect their lines and welfare centres at around 8 weeks, but had then seen 100's of these dogs and cats go on to have associated issues as their organs did not develop properly (and he worried because he said he knew not everyone would care and bring their pet in for follow-up treatment, so the incidence was likely far higher). Females becoming incontinent and needing to go on HRT for the rest of their lives (or have surgery) and males having urethras so small their incidence of urinary tract issues were ridiculous compared to the general population (and also requiring life saving operations). He said he knew other vets would agree to desex young animals, but he had seen enough.

The cat will have to wait until 6 months. Of course as breeders you may breed twice a year and never have had any known issues (or anything to compare it to for that matter), but in a large sample size of 1000's, if this was the observed outcome then I could never justify taking that risk with my pet.

People on these forums always argue that pet owners are entitled to dogs that are as healthy as possible - hence why the breeders who focus on anything other than health are labelled unethical (see blue staffy thread active right now for an example). Well why would you deliberately subject a dog or cat to a procedure that is undeniably physically detrimental and deny a pet owner the right to the healthiest puppy possible?

You do what you can to source appropriate homes, but one day they will be able to reproduce your dog with or without it's reproductive system intact (in fact if they were desperate enough today, they could, but it will only become increasingly cheap and accessible), so in the long-term you will need new strategies anyway.

[TheCoat]

registered breeders trying to protect their lines

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect

[~Shepherd~]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with.

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

removed for now

Edited October 11, 2011 by Chewbacca

[Red Fox]

Personally, I would not buy a large breed puppy if it were desexed, regardless of whether it was a pet, show or sport dog. The same goes for any pup intended as working and/or sporting prospect.

OP- Talk to the breeder and discuss your reasons for keeping the dog entire. You may be surprised. If not there are plenty of good GSD breeders around that will not desex their pups.

[Red Fox]

as my grandmother always says, once they leave your hands you have no control over what happens. so you do your best to get the right home where they will be a pet and not a breeding machine.

If you are breeding small companion dogs then certainly. But if you are breeding large working breeds it's a different story and there are multiple aspects to consider.

[Podengo]

Such an interesting topic. I can definitely understand the breeders of small dogs and poodles spaying/neutering their dogs before they go to new homes because of the high demand for these breeds in making "oodles". If I were a breeder, having my dogs used in that way would just be heart breaking, and there isn't really anything you can do about it, so the best measure is prevention.

I wouldn't have an issue buying a large breed dog that had undergone tubal litigation or something, and if I were breeding this is something I would consider, especially if I had a breed likely to be misused.

[german_shep_fan]

registered breeders trying to protect their lines

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect

The breeder is a registered breeder and they do come with papers, but they are not the show line variety. I get that this breeder wants to perserve this bloodline, hell i do too, hence why i wanted one from her, but i am not going to buy one from this breeder now as i just personally don't agree with desexing so young. I do not have bad intentions for any new dog i may get, i adore my dogs and they are a HUGE part of my life.

Spoke with the breeder, they won't alter their terms.

I am now looking elsewhere.

Thank you very much to everyone who responded and gave me advice

Very much appreciated

[Nekhbet]

in saving the bloodline like that it can sometimes be the downfall long term. Try looking in Vic and NSW for some of the similar dogs.

[german_shep_fan]

in saving the bloodline like that it can sometimes be the downfall long term. Try looking in Vic and NSW for some of the similar dogs.

Sorry Nekhbet i didnt see your message to me further up in the thread, I will send you a pm

[LizT]

Sometimes it can be very hard to make a decision regarding the welfare of the puppies you breed but trusting your judgement goes along way.

Ultimately it is up to the breeder and the buyer has the choice of going elsewhere.

I bred a litter of Cavalier KCS last year and had five bitches to sell.

I used a "Desexing contract" and also sweetened it with a $100 refund when the bitch was desexed at 6 months of age.

I know that the desexing contract is pretty much impotent in itself BUT it did give the buyer MY PROMISE in writing, of which it's legal standing I don't know but morally I felt oblidged to follow through on.

ALL puppies were desexed before their first season and everyone got their refunds barr one puppy.

She had a inverted vulva and the family who bought her were advised by their vet to allow her to have a first season to assist in the vulva maturing properly and to help reduce the incidence of UTI that the poor girl had been experiencing.

The family contacted me, sent me a letter from their vet, I agreed without hesitation. The bitch has since been desexed and her malady appears to have been rectified.

Now what would have been the plight of this little one if I had had her desexed at 8 weeks of age??

I will also add that it does not help that many Councils want pups registered at 3 months now instead of the previous 6 months of age and desexed by then too.

My pet male GSD's over the years have been desexed at approximately 7 months.

[TheCoat]

registered breeders trying to protect their lines

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect

The breeder is a registered breeder and they do come with papers, but they are not the show line variety. I get that this breeder wants to perserve this bloodline, hell i do too, hence why i wanted one from her, but i am not going to buy one from this breeder now as i just personally don't agree with desexing so young. I do not have bad intentions for any new dog i may get, i adore my dogs and they are a HUGE part of my life.

Spoke with the breeder, they won't alter their terms.

I am now looking elsewhere.

Thank you very much to everyone who responded and gave me advice

Very much appreciated

If a GSD bloodline isn't either a promising show line or a potential sporting champion, police, military, security, search and rescue, protection dog who's lines are not sold desexed in working roles, what is the line good for that needs protecting? sounds like a breeder getting carried away with themselves to me?

[Saffioraire]

as my grandmother always says, once they leave your hands you have no control over what happens. so you do your best to get the right home where they will be a pet and not a breeding machine.

If you are breeding small companion dogs then certainly. But if you are breeding large working breeds it's a different story and there are multiple aspects to consider.

I think that is what makes it difficult. That the argument changes with each breed of dog. As was said to me earlier today, the plight of the RSPCA vs the registered breeder is quite different.

I have printed off a heap of Journal Articles (Scientific Papers) to trawl through, so if anyone else wants to go over papers PM me and I'll forward on the relevant ones once Im done.

[german_shep_fan]

registered breeders trying to protect their lines

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect

The breeder is a registered breeder and they do come with papers, but they are not the show line variety. I get that this breeder wants to perserve this bloodline, hell i do too, hence why i wanted one from her, but i am not going to buy one from this breeder now as i just personally don't agree with desexing so young. I do not have bad intentions for any new dog i may get, i adore my dogs and they are a HUGE part of my life.

Spoke with the breeder, they won't alter their terms.

I am now looking elsewhere.

Thank you very much to everyone who responded and gave me advice

Very much appreciated

If a GSD bloodline isn't either a promising show line or a potential sporting champion, police, military, security, search and rescue, protection dog who's lines are not sold desexed in working roles, what is the line good for that needs protecting? sounds like a breeder getting carried away with themselves to me?

Like i said i am not getting one from her anymore so there is really no need to worry anymore. Thank you very much for answering my question. The breeder gave the reason as to why they want them desexed before sale and that is their business. I am looking elsewhere.

As far as protecting the bloodline im not sure if that is why the breeder is desexing or not. But i do like this 'type' of shepherd and what to preserve this 'type' before it disappears forever. they can be used as protection, police ect, but sometimes the average joe like myself just like them as a family pet. What is wrong with just wanting that???

[jacqui835]

I would say there's nothing really wrong with that, but it does make me wonder what attracted you to to the Gsd in the first place. If you want a large, loyal and intelligent dog but you're not so keen on a working dog well there are other breeds... Please don't think I'm trying to say I don't think you should have a Gsd or anything like that, it's just everything about the breeding program is supposed to support their working function.

[german_shep_fan]

I would say there's nothing really wrong with that, but it does make me wonder what attracted you to to the Gsd in the first place. If you want a large, loyal and intelligent dog but you're not so keen on a working dog well there are other breeds... Please don't think I'm trying to say I don't think you should have a Gsd or anything like that, it's just everything about the breeding program is supposed to support their working function.

My family have had shepherds since i was born and i have grown up with them. I love their termperament and their protectiveness torward their families ect.

I do want a shepherd that can work thats why i was looking for the type of shepherd that i am. I am not going into any arguments abt that either. I have my views on certain lines of them like everyone else does and thats all i am going to say. I wanted a shep with what I personally consider the correct structure.

I dont think i will bother coming back into this thread, infact i wish i could just delete it! All i asked abt was if ppl could provide evidence good or bad abt early desexing and ppl answered my q. Now i have ppl asking why i want a shepherd in the first place if i dont want to take it to schutzhund ect. I do advanced obedience work ect but the other aspects i am not interested in or cannot afford. Doesnt mean i can't have a shepherd that is also built to work.