Question About De-sexing

[german_shep_fan]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

[Leema]

Here is a report on early age desexing: http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/15309finalreport.pdf

Basically, it does not recommend early age desexing for puppies.

Perhaps you can ask for your dog to have a vasectomy / tubal ligation instead of the removal of its gonads. This way, the dog is not breedable, but is allowed to develop in a natural way.

[german_shep_fan]

Here is a report on early age desexing: http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/15309finalreport.pdf

Basically, it does not recommend early age desexing for puppies.

Perhaps you can ask for your dog to have a vasectomy / tubal ligation instead of the removal of its gonads. This way, the dog is not breedable, but is allowed to develop in a natural way.

Thank you very much for the link Leema

I am after a female pup, so i guess its really not looking good

[Kiara&Heidi]

Females can have a tubal ligation though, maybe you could ask the breeder if that would be ok.

[german_shep_fan]

Females can have a tubal ligation though, maybe you could ask the breeder if that would be ok.

Yes i might ask her if that is possible.

Thank you very much

[Guest dogcentric]

Females can have a tubal ligation though, maybe you could ask the breeder if that would be ok.

Yes i might ask her if that is possible.

Thank you very much

I'm looking at having a Tubal Ligation done on my puppy when she is around 6 months (I'm on a waiting list for a puppy). It seems so extreme to have their organs removed.

[TheCoat]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

Edited October 7, 2011 by TheCoat

[Steve]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

Geez its hard work being a breeder these days. Whilst I agree that early age desexing isnt the best way to go for numerous health reasons there has been a hell of a push on for breeders to do exactly that. Not because its self serving but because animal rights and animal welfare have very sucessful in pushing their propoganda and have breder believeing this is what should be done in order to prove they are responsible.

You also have to understand that Breed specific legislaton is alive and well and this breed has also had more than its fair share of attention in this regard.peopel who take home puppies and have oops litters have the potential to not only have unwanted litters but to put dogs onthe ground which look like purebreds but which could damage the reputaion of the breed.

So whilst I dont agree with breeders who do desex their puppies before they send them home I dont think its fair to say that its purely generated buy self interest

Often breeders will have posted ontheir websites that they do desex and then they dont in order to ensure thiose apply for a pup understand they are going topet homes and not to be used for breeding- and there could be thousands of valid reasons which has bought the breeder to deciding puppies in a litter are not suitable for breeding.

[Mystiqview]

I do not desex my puppies early. I do not believe there are no total ill effects from it.

However I have told potenital puppy buyers my pups are desexed at 8 weeks to help weed out ones I suspect are lying. It as been done and a very keen puppy buyer was then NOT keen. Found out that they DID want to breed a pet litter for the joy of their kids.

In QLD a few years ago now, the AWL and other welfare organisations were pushing for compulsary desexing of ALL cats and dogs sold by breeders into legislation. The only way a breeder could keep an entire animal was if sold to another breeder. After community consultation, thankfully the bill was ammended and thankfully that was quashed on the head. What later came out was the Animal Management Act 2008.

But the agenda is still there in some form.

Some breeders routinely desex to prevent John Smith from going later on, "lets produce a litter so the kids can see the miracle of birth".

On a breeder note. This is a recommendation I give to anyone looking for a puppy. If you do not like or are not comfortable with the conditions a breeder puts on their puppies. Look somewhere else. There are enough breeders out there who do breed responsibly.

[TheCoat]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

Geez its hard work being a breeder these days. Whilst I agree that early age desexing isnt the best way to go for numerous health reasons there has been a hell of a push on for breeders to do exactly that. Not because its self serving but because animal rights and animal welfare have very sucessful in pushing their propoganda and have breder believeing this is what should be done in order to prove they are responsible.

You also have to understand that Breed specific legislaton is alive and well and this breed has also had more than its fair share of attention in this regard.peopel who take home puppies and have oops litters have the potential to not only have unwanted litters but to put dogs onthe ground which look like purebreds but which could damage the reputaion of the breed.

So whilst I dont agree with breeders who do desex their puppies before they send them home I dont think its fair to say that its purely generated buy self interest

Often breeders will have posted ontheir websites that they do desex and then they dont in order to ensure thiose apply for a pup understand they are going topet homes and not to be used for breeding- and there could be thousands of valid reasons which has bought the breeder to deciding puppies in a litter are not suitable for breeding.

Hi Steve,

Desexing a GSD pup at 8 weeks IMHO is sheer lunacy from the aspect of the dogs growth and development. Whether it's either trying to protect their bloodlines to looking responsible it amounts to self interest fuelling the decision to do so, it's not about what's best for the pup which concerns me.

[german_shep_fan]

I do not desex my puppies early. I do not believe there are no total ill effects from it.

However I have told potenital puppy buyers my pups are desexed at 8 weeks to help weed out ones I suspect are lying. It as been done and a very keen puppy buyer was then NOT keen. Found out that they DID want to breed a pet litter for the joy of their kids.

In QLD a few years ago now, the AWL and other welfare organisations were pushing for compulsary desexing of ALL cats and dogs sold by breeders into legislation. The only way a breeder could keep an entire animal was if sold to another breeder. After community consultation, thankfully the bill was ammended and thankfully that was quashed on the head. What later came out was the Animal Management Act 2008.

But the agenda is still there in some form.

Some breeders routinely desex to prevent John Smith from going later on, "lets produce a litter so the kids can see the miracle of birth".

On a breeder note. This is a recommendation I give to anyone looking for a puppy. If you do not like or are not comfortable with the conditions a breeder puts on their puppies. Look somewhere else. There are enough breeders out there who do breed responsibly.

For many breeds yes there are many breeders who breed responsibly but the "type" of shepherd i am after has very few registered breeders around anymore

It is hard trying to find one in the first place lol

[Saffioraire]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with.

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

[TheCoat]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with.

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

Breeding issues are not the only factors that surround ill treatment of a dog. How do you contract around making sure the dog is fed properly, is given warmth, shelter and love, the dog is exercised, is taken to the vet if unwell, the dog is trained and socialised, the dog is vaccinated, wormed, fleed with it's coat taken care of etc etc?

So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter?

[Hafhafa Hounds]

So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter?

I don't think that's the ONLY thing breeders are concerned about, but it has certainly had a lot of press lately. With so many looking to cash in on popular DD and rare breeds, of course it's wise for breeders to protect their puppies from falling into "those" hands.

And you can't always tell... some people are too good at lying.

I don't for one second believe that Saffionaire was only concerned about this, but it's part of the whole deal.

EVERY breeder worth their weight is concerned not only for this reason above, but all of what you said TheCoat - the entire LIFE of the puppy.

I think you made a very provocative statement TheCoat.

[BJean]

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

Lots of hysterical fears. And I do not base my decisions on these.

Even if a home does breed with the bitch, it is unlikely they will leave her 'in the corner unassisted'.

And bitches can die even under the watch of the most vigilant breeder

and anyway GSDs are relatively hardy dogs aren't they? (Do they free whelp, I'm going to assume for the most part that they do).

Well done if the bitch has six large litters!

Good healthy genes being passed on there. Or maybe there is something wrong with the number six? Mastitis - another emergency there. Why would anything live in the first place only to risk colliding with such dire situations.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

If breeding dogs makes you feel so guilty that you question the trust of your friends, then maybe you should not breed? I dont mean to sound offensive or rude, but it reads as if breeding dogs may have started to take too much of an emotional toll on yourself. Or maybe I'm just reading more pathos and lament in your post than is intended.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

A breeder should not need to 'decide which is the more ethical decision to make'.

That truth comes from within yourself, and is born from the knowledge and understanding you have of your own dogs and their requirements.

Maybe you care too much for what society thinks and not enough for what you think.

Edited October 10, 2011 by lilli

[TheCoat]

So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter?

I don't think that's the ONLY thing breeders are concerned about, but it has certainly had a lot of press lately. With so many looking to cash in on popular DD and rare breeds, of course it's wise for breeders to protect their puppies from falling into "those" hands.

And you can't always tell... some people are too good at lying.

I don't for one second believe that Saffionaire was only concerned about this, but it's part of the whole deal.

EVERY breeder worth their weight is concerned not only for this reason above, but all of what you said TheCoat - the entire LIFE of the puppy.

I think you made a very provocative statement TheCoat.

My statement is that breeders who desex pups do so for their own benefit with the reason for doing so misconstude as being in the best interest of the dog. Given that the breeder can't control any of the basic factors in the dog's life like adequate food and water, whether the dog is breedable or not in comparison is of minor consequence in my opinion.

Edited October 10, 2011 by TheCoat

[Saffioraire]

Hi all

I just have a quick question and would appreciate some advice.

I was looking to purchase another GSD within the next few mnths or so and had my heart set on a certain breeder but just noticed on their website that they de-sex their pups before they leave at 8 weeks. Its not that i mind the de-sexing per say, but just wondering can it cause problems later on to de-sex a dog so young?

I thought standard was 6mnths?

I know the rspca de-sex their pups before they go too, but just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable abt this?

Thanks very much

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with.

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

Breeding issues are not the only factors that surround ill treatment of a dog. How do you contract around making sure the dog is fed properly, is given warmth, shelter and love, the dog is exercised, is taken to the vet if unwell, the dog is trained and socialised, the dog is vaccinated, wormed, fleed with it's coat taken care of etc etc?

So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter?

You cant contract these things, which is why you invest a lot of time and effort into making sure you go with what you deem are the right people. At the end of the day you can only do so much, and then ultimately it is out of your hands. But if you can do one more thing that ensures the welfare of the pup then why not do it?

I have taken midnight phone calls and driven interstate to visit and help people with their pups, so there is plenty more I care about - this is just one issue that is a difficult one.

[Saffioraire]

I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?"

Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation.

Lots of hysterical fears. And I do not base my decisions on these.

Even if a home does breed with the bitch, it is unlikely they will leave her 'in the corner unassisted'.

And bitches can die even under the watch of the most vigilant breeder

and anyway GSDs are relatively hardy dogs aren't they? (Do they free whelp, I'm going to assume for the most part that they do).

Well done if the bitch has six large litters!

Good healthy genes being passed on there. Or maybe there is something wrong with the number six? Mastitis - another emergency there. Why would anything live in the first place only to risk colliding with such dire situations.

I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for.

If breeding dogs makes you feel so guilty that you question the trust of your friends, then maybe you should not breed? I dont mean to sound offensive or rude, but it reads as if breeding dogs may have started to take too much of an emotional toll on yourself. Or maybe I'm just reading more pathos and lament in your post than is intended.

As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush.

A breeder should not need to 'decide which is the more ethical decision to make'.

That truth comes from within yourself, and is born from the knowledge and understanding you have of your own dogs and their requirements.

Maybe you care too much for what society thinks and not enough for what you think.

Why 'hysterical' fears? Maybe just a comparison of situations looking for one alternative that is not so bad as the other. Not every situation has a "good" alternative, so sometimes you must look for the least adverse?

I am not sure about GSD's but the Swiss are hardy enough dogs yes, but you would be surprised how many people do just 'leave their dogs in a corner' to whelp. As I said in another post I encountered one situation where a dog was removed from it's 2 day old pups because she was accidentally rolling on them causing death. The pups were fed coles puppy milk twice a day and offered no alternate source of heat (it was not summer!) all 10 died and the mother needed to be put onto valium as she was hysterical. The owner of this dog had her own human child!

I agree that even good breeders lose dogs, so to have a sub experienced owner and no help does not offer a positive prognosis! It is not about good or bad genes it is about the welfare of the dog you bred, and ergo are responsible for. If I did not care for the pup after it walked out my gate then I am no better than a puppy farm.

Maybe I put too much emotion into my words, but if I am choosing to put my dog into whelp I see the follow up decisions Re. pups as being responsible and accountable for my decisions.

I agree that we should make the choice that comes from within, but we all look for guidance to help steer our hearts and minds at some point. Looking to others for their thoughts, to help shape your own, leads to more educated and informed decisions. Whether you choose to go with social opinion or not is an entirely different matter. I can assure you I will do what I deem the best decision regardless of what someone elses opinion is, but if the discussion causes someone to post a journal of scientific articles showing adverse or positive articles for either side, then that may change my mind for the end result is always what is best for the pup!

[toy*dog]

looking at what our family do for our dogs, i make decisions based on what is best for my dogs not for my hip pocket or fashions or what others will think of me.

so we desex any of our dogs or pups that leaves our premises as someone else said in this thread they have been burnt all to often like us.

example if not desexed, people will ring up and say they just want a pet then go and breed the dog, one lady in the beginning when i was very green said she wanted to breed the 2 bitches i sold her stupidly. a few years later going back to see how the dogs were doing i found several under weight pups and the pup she gave me was full of worms not vacc, and she was breeding these poor bitches every season for money. then one of the bitches was left to wander the neighborhood and got run over, i blame myself for the poor choice of home for those dogs. the other was given to a friend that was going to put the dog over a JR so i tried to buy the dog back but even though you could see these people were only interested in the money these dogs could give them being bred were not really looked after well, they refused to give up the dog even though i offered more money than they paid me.

after that, i never sell undesexed dogs only to people that will allow me to guide them and breed responsibly not with puppy farm intentions im sorry to say. other scenarios have been: buyers say "we will get the dog desexed" you could very well tell the people had no intentions! another one lied about where the dog was going (found out by ringing up the person they put down in paperwork, what dog? they said) in order to try and breed the bitch that i sold as a pet. found out they couldn't after having several go's so gave the dog away to the first person they could find which happened to be a responsible home which now we keep in contact with. dog died of old age and had a happy life after all that.

we tried the contract thing but it didn't work, people either just disappeared off the face of the earth rather than coming back for a desexing voucher or we even tried witholding papers, (american breeders ideas they swore it would work) or ppl would breed the dogs anyway after you putting on contract PET ONLY. then i rang up to see how the dog was going and owner told me to sod off and mind my own business she can breed the dog if she wants.

so we do it for protection of our dogs not for our own benefit, the only way we can be assured that the person is genuinely only intersted in a pet and not a breeding machine to make money off is to get our dogs desexed before they leave our homes. And then sometimes not even getting all the $ back that we spend on the dogs when we keep them for 7 months or up until 2-3 years of age, as unfortunately in today's society you can't really trust too many its a sad fact and some ppl are very good at telling porkies to get what they want they will stop at nothing.

as my grandmother always says, once they leave your hands you have no control over what happens. so you do your best to get the right home where they will be a pet and not a breeding machine.

Edited October 10, 2011 by toy*dog

[monique.c]

I wonder if you could offer to pay some money extra to then get back on proof of de-sexing? Like a couple of hundred dollars or something and have a written agreement that the extra money will be refunded to you on proof of desexing?