Further Changes To Grand Title

[Sayreovi]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

Except, that dogs are meant to be judged against the standard first and then against other dogs.....if a judge decides that a dog is close enough to the standard that it's too be awarded then it gets awarded.

It is up to the judge to nil award if the dog isn't good enough!

Really this is an argument that will never have an answer to suit everyone and it really is starting to get annoying being told over and over again how my dogs title is easy and worthless.......we put in the same amount of work as everyone else, pay the same fee, and all for the judges opinion.

No wonder you see a rare breed title and then disappear altogether when attitudes like this are so common!

[Fit for a King]

Like Benshiva said they do well in QLD also!! My daughter has won several BIG with a Belgian contributing to him gaining his grand this year. She has also handled rare breeds like PWD and Puli's who also have obtained their grands!

Not forgetting she has also handled BRTs which are in very short supply .....IMO rare breeds tend to aim "higher" - they often compete against numerically smaller groups of their own (if there is even competition) but then aim to be highly competitive in the group lineup.......

[pixie_meg]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

whether its easier for a rare breed to gain its title over a common breed, has been discussed numerous times. Theres such a thing as a non award, and i for one, in a rare breed, hate turning up to no competition, and with a good example of the breed with little competition it will actually take longer to get his title than an equally good example in a common breed. so don't cry foul.

[nabs]

Like Benshiva said they do well in QLD also!! My daughter has won several BIG with a Belgian contributing to him gaining his grand this year. She has also handled rare breeds like PWD and Puli's who also have obtained their grands!

Not forgetting she has also handled BRTs which are in very short supply .....IMO rare breeds tend to aim "higher" - they often compete against numerically smaller groups of their own (if there is even competition) but then aim to be highly competitive in the group lineup.......

And some of your BRT have done very very well!!! :D

[nabs]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

whether its easier for a rare breed to gain its title over a common breed, has been discussed numerous times. Theres such a thing as a non award, and i for one, in a rare breed, hate turning up to no competition, and with a good example of the breed with little competition it will actually take longer to get his title than an equally good example in a common breed. so don't cry foul.

Not necessarily Pixie. JR is in SA and shows Shetland Sheepdogs. That breed is of a very high quality. There are some outstanding youngsters who have to go up against several older dogs who are multi BIS winners. Only one dog can go through to CC of each sex and one for BOB. The standard is very high in this breed and often one dog does not dominate so it can be difficult to gain a title fast.

[Libertybrook]

Like Benshiva said they do well in QLD also!! My daughter has won several BIG with a Belgian contributing to him gaining his grand this year. She has also handled rare breeds like PWD and Puli's who also have obtained their grands!

Not forgetting she has also handled BRTs which are in very short supply .....IMO rare breeds tend to aim "higher" - they often compete against numerically smaller groups of their own (if there is even competition) but then aim to be highly competitive in the group lineup.......

I agree I think being in a rare breed makes you work that much harder in presenting a top quality example of the breed, My 3.5 year old BRT girl

is a BIG winner , Multiple RUBIG, and class in groups and Shows from Baby through to Aust Bred,

she is a great example of her breed, I have had breed specialists go over her, overseas judges go over her

and Australian Judges whom have judged overseas and seen and handled/judged numerous examples of the breed,

all of whom have complimented her on her excellent bred type, structure, bone,temperament and classic BRT movement

its lovely when we have Australian Judges whom have seen them overseas and know what to look for,

they more often than not award her well, :D

for 3 years it was a bit sad to be the only one in NSW,

but now we have quite a few young ones coming through, our two babies I am running on now which are cousins to my older girl, have huge shoes to fill

their GR CH sire has 10 X BIS All Breeds, 25+ BIG's etc etc, their imported mum is a BIG winner and so on through their Grandparents,

they both are now 7 months old, both multiple classes in group from Baby, Minor , Puppy classes as well as

BOB RUBOB'S, and like someone else said they could have been nil awarded,

so rare breeds can and do get their GR CH's, it might just take a little longer, mainly for judges to learn and know more about the breed and know that yes these are excellent examples of their breed and put them up,

I also show BC's and that can be just as hard to get a GR CH title, lol

[the far north]

Hi - I heard earlier today that apparently the requirements for a Grand Champion are being changed back to the old system and that there is going to be a new title called a Supreme Grand which will require 10 BIG or BIS (can't remember the details as it was a rushed conversation) - apologies if I've missed this elsewhere, I did a quick search but I'm completely useless at searching.

I would like to see this happen before any more changes or introductions of new styles of awards etc...JUDGES that will honor what they are signing.."I am clearly of the opinion that this dog is of such OUTSTANDING merit to be WORTHY of the title of Australian Champion" seems to me so much garbarge is awarded with no second thought as to a standard and in many cases with obvious genetic issues...and I flip out when I hear a judge say " oh but it is the country better award these dogs here"...anyways just my little bit of angst on the situation ....

[Dogsfevr]

the problem is what is rare in my state is abundant in another,what is a minority breed can be considered rare.

I am currently showing a breed that is a one off,there is a new male here & they are suppose to show so will see what happens.

I also have to aim high, i go to shows for group etc etc,if my dog can't win those or be considered often then its safe to say he isn't of quality.

Luckily for me he is a Multi BIS winner & has won in tough breed comp in 3 states plus picked up multi grp/ruig in 3 states .Is a Grand Ch & has competed at 3 royals this year for grp.ruig & grp 4. He has proven himself amongst the best .

[jr_inoz]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

whether its easier for a rare breed to gain its title over a common breed, has been discussed numerous times. Theres such a thing as a non award, and i for one, in a rare breed, hate turning up to no competition, and with a good example of the breed with little competition it will actually take longer to get his title than an equally good example in a common breed. so don't cry foul.

Not necessarily Pixie. JR is in SA and shows Shetland Sheepdogs. That breed is of a very high quality. There are some outstanding youngsters who have to go up against several older dogs who are multi BIS winners. Only one dog can go through to CC of each sex and one for BOB. The standard is very high in this breed and often one dog does not dominate so it can be difficult to gain a title fast.

Thanks SnD - that was the point I was trying to make. I see very promising dogs out each week - but with only one place to show, they regularly come up against multi BIS GrCHs week in and week out. They struggle to get their title, which they deserve. We are often told by interstate visitors "Your dog would have its title by now if you were showing in this or that state or place". Some of these promising ones have multiple class in group wins and even class in show wins, but are still working toward their title, a couple only have a handle of points yet are multiple class in group winners.

I am not saying that a rare breed doesn't necessarily deserve its title and I am always excited and pleased when the good example of the rare breed gets acknowledged at group level.

It is why I think the current system for a Grand title is important and worthwhile. If you are good enough, you will win at group and qualify for the GrCh. It should be something special, not something that you can get by being the only one of your breed at a show and never able to beat anything else. You've got your Aust Ch title for that.

It is also why I like the ROMA title the sheltie clubs have. It acknowledges how good that dog or bitch and its contribution to the breed itself.

the problem is what is rare in my state is abundant in another,what is a minority breed can be considered rare.

I am currently showing a breed that is a one off,there is a new male here & they are suppose to show so will see what happens.

I also have to aim high, i go to shows for group etc etc,if my dog can't win those or be considered often then its safe to say he isn't of quality.

Luckily for me he is a Multi BIS winner & has won in tough breed comp in 3 states plus picked up multi grp/ruig in 3 states .Is a Grand Ch & has competed at 3 royals this year for grp.ruig & grp 4. He has proven himself amongst the best .

Which is fantastic and what I've been trying to say. If you are good enough, even though rare, you should be winning at Group level and so be congratulated accordingly.

[Dogsfevr]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

whether its easier for a rare breed to gain its title over a common breed, has been discussed numerous times. Theres such a thing as a non award, and i for one, in a rare breed, hate turning up to no competition, and with a good example of the breed with little competition it will actually take longer to get his title than an equally good example in a common breed. so don't cry foul.

Not necessarily Pixie. JR is in SA and shows Shetland Sheepdogs. That breed is of a very high quality. There are some outstanding youngsters who have to go up against several older dogs who are multi BIS winners. Only one dog can go through to CC of each sex and one for BOB. The standard is very high in this breed and often one dog does not dominate so it can be difficult to gain a title fast.

Thanks SnD - that was the point I was trying to make. I see very promising dogs out each week - but with only one place to show, they regularly come up against multi BIS GrCHs week in and week out. They struggle to get their title, which they deserve. We are often told by interstate visitors "Your dog would have its title by now if you were showing in this or that state or place". Some of these promising ones have multiple class in group wins and even class in show wins, but are still working toward their title, a couple only have a handle of points yet are multiple class in group winners.

I am not saying that a rare breed doesn't necessarily deserve its title and I am always excited and pleased when the good example of the rare breed gets acknowledged at group level.

It is why I think the current system for a Grand title is important and worthwhile. If you are good enough, you will win at group and qualify for the GrCh. It should be something special, not something that you can get by being the only one of your breed at a show and never able to beat anything else. You've got your Aust Ch title for that.

It is also why I like the ROMA title the sheltie clubs have. It acknowledges how good that dog or bitch and its contribution to the breed itself.

name='showdog' timestamp='1318476968' post='5540723']

the problem is what is rare in my state is abundant in another,what is a minority breed can be considered rare.

I am currently showing a breed that is a one off,there is a new male here & they are suppose to show so will see what happens.

I also have to aim high, i go to shows for group etc etc,if my dog can't win those or be considered often then its safe to say he isn't of quality.

Luckily for me he is a Multi BIS winner & has won in tough breed comp in 3 states plus picked up multi grp/ruig in 3 states .Is a Grand Ch & has competed at 3 royals this year for grp.ruig & grp 4. He has proven himself amongst the best .

Which is fantastic and what I've been trying to say. If you are good enough, even though rare, you should be winning at Group level and so be congratulated accordingly.

Your like us the same show same people the only advantage you have is its easier to drive to Melbourne or the likes to branch out ;)

[capanash]

Just another thought on this subject.

Over the weekend, we saw a dog win a 6pt BOB, Runner up in Grp, then Runner up in Show. After beating all but one dog at the show, the dog is still only awarded 6pts and under existing rules, the win does not count towards a Grand Champion title.

[Entourage]

Many years ago when we titled a dog, we would leave that dog at home to show the next generation that we had kept for showing. No good entering a titled dog and keep flogging the dog out till they were sick of it or that it kept beating our younger dogs just on maturity. When there was a large show like the Australia Day shows used to be with 2000+ dogs and the Melb Royal, we would then bring the older dogs out. It wasn't just us that did that, others in the same breed did the same.

Yes there are influences like petrol costs and people now getting their children involved in other things other. But its also not a family outing much anymore. Years ago you would see many families with 2-3 children turn up and they would all be involved in grooming the dogs and showing. Now its more singles, and couples, both straight and gay involved in showing dogs.

Now with the grand champion title here, many are keeping on showing their older dogs, as well as young ones who may be already titled and will keep on showing in the knowledge they will have a good chance on showing till they get their grand (i included in that). Other exhibitors with dogs who quite well be good enough specimens to get their championship kept getting beaten and beaten, trying to dodge the people that win constantly or even calling their dogs absent when they see another exhibitor turning up to a show because they know they havnt got a chance in hell of winning.

Years ago to... breeders kept their pick from a litter to go on with but there would be other puppies in the litter with just as much promise which might not be kept because of lack of room rather than quality and these would be found homes that people would show these puppies, hence bringing new people to the dog world. Now breeders are so worried of guarding their lines or worried about being beaten by a dog which they may of bred. They don't see a dog being shown they have bred and win and think to themselves 'i bred that dog and im proud of it' its more of 'i bred that dog and i cant believe i sold it to someone who is now beating me with it'

Peoples attitudes have changed, its all about winning and not about the good for the betterment of the breed.

[mirawee]

Now with the grand champion title here, many are keeping on showing their older dogs, as well as young ones who may be already titled and will keep on showing in the knowledge they will have a good chance on showing till they get their grand (i included in that). Other exhibitors with dogs who quite well be good enough specimens to get their championship kept getting beaten and beaten, trying to dodge the people that win constantly or even calling their dogs absent when they see another exhibitor turning up to a show because they know they havnt got a chance in hell of winning.

Well they are guaranteeing their dog won't win if they don't compete aren't they?

I have won when I didn't expect to ... and lost when I didn't expect to either

Edited October 17, 2011 by mirawee

[Entourage]

Well they are guaranteeing their dog won't win if they don't compete aren't they?

I have won when I didn't expect to ... and lost when I didn't expect to either

I know, if your not in it, you cant win it! thats my theory anyway. Absolutely ridiculous behavior and quite childish. Anyway...im not their psychologist LOL

[fluffybutt]

Hi - I heard earlier today that apparently the requirements for a Grand Champion are being changed back to the old system and that there is going to be a new title called a Supreme Grand which will require 10 BIG or BIS (can't remember the details as it was a rushed conversation) - apologies if I've missed this elsewhere, I did a quick search but I'm completely useless at searching.

I would like to see this happen before any more changes or introductions of new styles of awards etc...JUDGES that will honor what they are signing.."I am clearly of the opinion that this dog is of such OUTSTANDING merit to be WORTHY of the title of Australian Champion" seems to me so much garbarge is awarded with no second thought as to a standard and in many cases with obvious genetic issues...and I flip out when I hear a judge say " oh but it is the country better award these dogs here"...anyways just my little bit of angst on the situation ....

Youhave left out a word Worthy to QUALIFY If already qualifiued forthe title of champion then theie should be a different type of certificate for further titles

[Libertybrook]

Hi - I heard earlier today that apparently the requirements for a Grand Champion are being changed back to the old system and that there is going to be a new title called a Supreme Grand which will require 10 BIG or BIS (can't remember the details as it was a rushed conversation) - apologies if I've missed this elsewhere, I did a quick search but I'm completely useless at searching.

well it turns out its true,I was told at a DOGNSW Western Region meeting from a DOGSNSW Board member that

said it was brought up at the ANKC conference in QLD a week or so ago

and they said yes it wiill return to the old format

gain a 1000 points (only) and your dog will get its GR CH Title,

plus a new level of something like Supreme GR CH which includes a 1000 points + BIG's (number still to be decided on) and OR a BIS

the finer details have yet to be nutted out but that gives you a rough idea, and hopefully should be in by sometime later in the year.

[-Megz-]

Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions....

[Libertybrook]

what ever the system it will never suit everyone or be perfect........

cant please all of the people all of the time....

[jacqui835]

Poodlefan, I absolutely love your idea of aptitude/instinct tests for dogs to gain stronger titles - I believe that might help to kill 2 birds with 1 stone as well because the wider community would be more interested and confident about dogs from breeders who show.

How often do you hear down at the dog park, at the vet, at the cafe or wherever else you talk to people about their dogs - oh I don't want a dog from show lines, true to temperament is more important than true to looks. And I met a lot of dobermans and german shepherds who rolled over onto their backs upon meeting us for the first time (all who held grand titles) - but that is not a doberman or german shepherd in my books...

I don't look twice at dogs who haven't completed any sort of working activity - if I wasn't interested in their working ability I would choose a different breed. And I am not talking about breeding for aggression, but they're meant to be be aloof and fearless, not submissive and labrador like in that they treat everyone like a friend before even getting to know them.

"The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them." I personally don't believe that a male adult shepherd who rolled onto his back upon meeting us for the first time should hold any titles or be used for breeding - because to me he does not conform to standard.

Edited October 31, 2011 by jacqui835

[TessnSean]

The statistics support the indisputable fact that obtaining a Grand Championship is an impossible dream for many breeds. At the last 4 shows in Vic where the entry exceeded 800 dogs there were 6, 7 and 9 breeds where there was the potential of a 25 pt challenge if there were no scratchings. Reading Dog News Australia, there were 1077 dogs entered for Durack earlier in the year and of the 126 breeds entered only 20 could possibly earn a 25 point challenge. Less with scratchings.

People can quote me the exceptions who still gain their Grand titles from a 6 point challenge and boast about how good they showing multiple rare breeds to beat all comers, the fact remains, the current ruling excluded the majority of those showing dogs. The figures do not lie.