Further Changes To Grand Title

[SparkyTansy]

As much as I would love a Specialty BIS to count for something, some don't even attract high numbers. My sisters OES won a BISS two years ago. It was only 13 points. As proud as I am that he won that BISS, he competed against the same number of dogs as he would at an All Breeds show.

I think that having 4 x BIG or 1 x BIS with 1000 points is a good idea. It's fair for everyone. It shoudl not be easy to obtain a Grand - it should be special and reserved for special dogs that stand out - those 1 in 1000 dogs that stand out above all others and win consistently because they are great, and the remain memorable.

[Dellcara]

As much as I would love a Specialty BIS to count for something, some don't even attract high numbers. My sisters OES won a BISS two years ago. It was only 13 points. As proud as I am that he won that BISS, he competed against the same number of dogs as he would at an All Breeds show.

yes - I can see your point

to be honest I think it's time Specialty Shows had to draw certain numbers in order to retain their Ch show.

[SwaY]

As much as I would love a Specialty BIS to count for something, some don't even attract high numbers. My sisters OES won a BISS two years ago. It was only 13 points. As proud as I am that he won that BISS, he competed against the same number of dogs as he would at an All Breeds show.

yes - I can see your point

to be honest I think it's time Specialty Shows had to draw certain numbers in order to retain their Ch show.

I agree, our recent champ show in NSW had an entry of 29, 25 were shown and of those 25 - 6 were babies.

That is an entry of 19 for a Champ Show, the same breed gets 50+ here in Vic at a Champ Show.

[mirawee]

The beagle won the hound group at the Perth Royal but a Pharoah has won the group at Perth Royal in the past

Oops, my informant must have been wrong I didn't look up the results myself.

As always no system is going to please everyone .....

In my breed of course 25pt CC's are available at many shows in the breed.

I'd agree with 4 BIG or 1 Allbreed BIS but think that a Specialty BIS should account for something.

Then of course ... there are some places who don't get a 25pt CC for Best in Group .. I was looking

at some results earlier and the Group entry was 4 !!!!!

BIG, BIS or BISS should still be only if they are 25 point CC. Fairly sure that the current rules have that for BIG or BIS - that is how I read it anyway

[Dellcara]

BIG, BIS or BISS should still be only if they are 25 point CC. Fairly sure that the current rules have that for BIG or BIS - that is how I read it anyway

happy to be corrected if I'm wrong .. but I don't believe that's the case currently;

Grand Champion Title

1,000 points including

1 All Breeds Best in Show; or

4 Best in Group; or

4 Certificates of 25 points. (these could be Group, BOB or Challenge)

It does not state that the BIS or BIG must be 25pts.

[Ceilidh]

BIG, BIS or BISS should still be only if they are 25 point CC. Fairly sure that the current rules have that for BIG or BIS - that is how I read it anyway

happy to be corrected if I'm wrong .. but I don't believe that's the case currently;

Grand Champion Title

1,000 points including

1 All Breeds Best in Show; or

4 Best in Group; or

4 Certificates of 25 points. (these could be Group, BOB or Challenge)

It does not state that the BIS or BIG must be 25pts.

You are right, it just needs to be BIG, doesn't matter how many points. On Friday at Illabo there were four dogs in the Utility group, one Dobe, two Rottweilers, all in Intermediate so only two dogs in the group line up, and one neuter. BIG...8 points! Ridiculious that this can count towards a Grand title.

[Dellcara]

BIG...8 points! Ridiculious that this can count towards a Grand title.

ridiculous indeed ........

[yarracully]

If you remove the 25 point breed challenge you automatically remove the specialty shows. A win at a specialty show is equal to a breed challenge. So that if you win a specialty show with 100 entries as far as the requirements are concerned that is the same as a 25 point breed challenge.

A win at a specialty show does not equal a win at an all breeds show. (As it currently stands)

So get rid of the 25 point BOB at All breed shows but accept 25 point BIS at Specialties

Then you get back to the issue of "What about breeds that don't have a specialty" which you raised the issue of in a previous post

Edited October 11, 2011 by yarracully

[capanash]

There was a WA Allbreeds Best in Show last year with 27 dogs. This still qualifies for Grand Champion.

[Shaar]

I won BIS at a group specialty show on the weekend, does that count on the Grand Ch system as a BIG?

I like the current system of 4 BIG's or 1 BIS and 1000 points.

I don't think 25 point challenges should be brought into it as it is unfair to those who can't travel to shows with big numbers in their breed. Our average entry for group 1 is around 70 dogs... but that's doesn't mean 20 of those are going to be Chinese Cresteds!

[Dogsfevr]

There was a WA Allbreeds Best in Show last year with 27 dogs. This still qualifies for Grand Champion.

That show would have been Port Hedland a 2 day drive from Perth

That was average for the club up there ,the only chance the top half of WA managed to stay truly involved ,now the locals up there have to travel down to Geraldton.

The club by all accounts ran great shows,obedience & was very involved in promoting the dog world with a very small group of people but a bit like the NT(most in the forces) many worked in the mines & have moved .

But yes it counted

[brintey]

When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

Hi TessnSean, my Leo girl Singe got a BIG in August at a big Sydney All Breeds show.

Leos have won BIS over in NZ where there are more of them (same bloodlines as here).

It's true Leos don't win here very often - we are a numerically small breed - but we are out there trying! (The DOL pointscore is a good incentive for those with rare breeds to keep showing, as even though I am mostly the only Leo showing in Sydney there are four or five regularly shown in Victoria at the moment and this is a good way for us to compete.)

As for the Gr Ch title and rare breeds... we are never going to have 25 point challenges so that makes no difference to me (why not specify that the BIG/BIS qualifying award must also be a minimum of 25 points to even up the playing field?). Judges do seem happier to award rare breeds class in group/class in show - could these not count also if the competition was more than 20 dogs? That would then be equal to a 25 point challenge in the more popular breeds.

[mirawee]

If you remove the 25 point breed challenge you automatically remove the specialty shows. A win at a specialty show is equal to a breed challenge. So that if you win a specialty show with 100 entries as far as the requirements are concerned that is the same as a 25 point breed challenge.

A win at a specialty show does not equal a win at an all breeds show. (As it currently stands)

So get rid of the 25 point BOB at All breed shows but accept 25 point BIS at Specialties

Then you get back to the issue of "What about breeds that don't have a specialty" which you raised the issue of in a previous post

I would prefer that to 25 point CC at all breed shows Just annoys me that a dog can go ruBIG and not get anything towards their Grand, yet a dog who got a 25 point CC and was beaten for BIG/ruBIG still gets the requirement towards the award

[SpikesPuppy]

What about the smooth collie that got BIG 4 at Melbourne Royal?? She was also BISS at the Vic champ show (beating the rough BOB) and RUBISS in NSW. A smooth collie will rarely go up for BIG in Australia, lots of RUBIG but it's hard enough for them to get BISS over the pretty toughs and arguably, the quality of smooths here is higher than that of the toughs but judges over look them for whatever reason.

It is frustrating that a dog can do so well (not sure how many dog's in group 5 Melbourne royal but would guess at least 500!) and yet it still counts naught toward a grand championship??

I read on the ANKC site that BISS does count but only if 50 dog's eligible for challenge are present and shown.

For a while in Victoria, group 2 was dominated almost exclusively by 2 individual dogs. You cannot honestly believe that no other dog shown in Metro Melbourne was not as good as or better than those 2 dogs??? Yes they show well and look good in the ring but it got boring- 9 out of 10 shows it would be those dogs BIG/RUBIG.

I like the idea of grand champ the old way and supreme champ for those truly outstanding dogs.

[nabs]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

A Pharoah hound recently won BIS in QLD

So has a Tib Mastiff and many other rare breeds!! There have been a few Pharaoh hounds in the past to win BIS in QLD. Many rare breeds win BIS up here. It ain't easy getting a grand on a popular breed either!! Often you have several BIS winning dogs you have to beat for the CC before you can even think about getting BOB and then on to BIG!!! It can be cut throat just getting your class at some shows. If the dog is good enough in any breed it can go through and get its grand.!

[nabs]

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

You know we had bigger entries at shows BEFORE the Grand CH title was introduced! There are many other factors that have caused the decline of dog shows. I doubt the Grand title has anythinhg to do with it.

[benshiva]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Belgian Shepherds do extremely well in the rings in NSW. This includes major shows, the latest being a BIG at the International shows in Hillsborough. Most of the major winners in the rings were present and the Belgian still went on to win BIG. A stunning dog by the way and a very worthy winner.

[nabs]

Like Benshiva said they do well in QLD also!! My daughter has won several BIG with a Belgian contributing to him gaining his grand this year. She has also handled rare breeds like PWD and Puli's who also have obtained their grands!

[jr_inoz]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

[RallyValley]

my other two cents worth is that it is easier for a rare breed to gain its title (not grand under the new rules) than for those breeds with larger numbers. Here in SA, where there is no choice of shows - (we're altogether every week - just the one show each time to go to, not a choice) - competition is much tougher in some breeds. Some dogs shown here are very good examples of their breed and struggle to get their title. A dog in a rare breed gets its title easily, with no competition, and can be a not so good example of the breed, because there is nothing else for it to compete against. Am happy to see the 'popular' breeds gain their titles here in SA - you know they have beaten outstanding quality to get there. A title in this state in a popular breed is harder to come by than it is in other states where there is less competition. A Gr Ch title, even more so.

:rolleyes: I show in a 'rare' breed, my bitch is the only one currently showing in my state. I have been trying to convince a local field trialler with a stunning dog from the same breeder as my girl to let me show his dog, I know his dog will like beat my bitch due to maturity but I don't care, I would just rather see more Britts out there! The same goes for a girl who told me she is getting a puppy and is interested in showing, I gave her all my details and told her I would do anything to help out.

Next year I am planning to fly over east to go up against competition, it will be far more exciting then the cursory look over some judges give rare breeds.