Further Changes To Grand Title

[AshleyB]

I agree with the leave it how it is comments. If they want to add another title, make it something between Australian Championship and Australian Grand Championship.

[Aziah]

I don't agree with having something between Champion & Grand Champion - something AFTER Grand Champion would be far more suitable if the powers that be decided to change it.

I don't mind whether it reverts back or not...

Edited October 7, 2011 by Aziah

[Dogsfevr]

I may be wrong but don't Qld already have 3 extra Conformation Awards, Gold, Silver & Bronze?

i'm fairly new to showing but its not something i've heard of.

It is available in WA now so i gather all states

100 Aust Champ.250 Bronze.500 Silver.750 Gold .1000 Grand

Gold.silver.bronze Titles i think is more a certificate award & not placed on the dogs title officially but is recognition for obtaining the points

[Aziah]

It is available in WA now so i gather all states

100 Aust Champ.250 Bronze.500 Silver.750 Gold .1000 Grand

Gold.silver.bronze Titles i think is more a certificate award & not placed on the dogs title officially but is recognition for obtaining the points

Not in NSW that I'm aware of...

[SwaY]

It is available in WA now so i gather all states

100 Aust Champ.250 Bronze.500 Silver.750 Gold .1000 Grand

Gold.silver.bronze Titles i think is more a certificate award & not placed on the dogs title officially but is recognition for obtaining the points

Not in NSW that I'm aware of...

Nor in VIC...

[Dogsfevr]

It is available in WA now so i gather all states

100 Aust Champ.250 Bronze.500 Silver.750 Gold .1000 Grand

Gold.silver.bronze Titles i think is more a certificate award & not placed on the dogs title officially but is recognition for obtaining the points

Not in NSW that I'm aware of...

I wasn't aware either until i read title applications in our canine news

It was never made common knowledge here

[yarracully]

How about this as a radical idea. No further titles or higher titles on any dog that hasn't produced the goods in the whelping box.

If a "Supreme Grand" Champion had to produce a minium of titled dogs (more for dogs than bitches), it might shake things up a bit. It's more than a tad ironic that a system that supposedly is about selecting the best breeding dogs has no factor within it that actually tests that the dogs can produce the goods.

Problem is Poodlefan, as both you and I know, the system is supposed to be about what dog matches a predefined standard. At no point is it possible to use a dog show as a measure of a dogs reproductive ability. There are many dogs running around the show ring that can not produce good specimans of the breed. There are also equally many dogs that do not do well in the ring but can throw excellant progeny. I have a few of each example here.

Furthermore there are many cases where a person may have an excellant example of a breed but may not be able to breed from that dog for reasons not related to teh actual dog. (Council limits on number of dogs etc.) Personally, and I know I have said it before, I would prefer to return to the system where points awarded were breed based and not group or in show based. Its all about improving the chosen breed. Comparing them to other breeds should not be involved.

[WreckitWhippet]

I don't agree with having something between Champion & Grand Champion - something AFTER Grand Champion would be far more suitable if the powers that be decided to change it.

I don't mind whether it reverts back or not...

I do, as it's made some really earn that title, rather than have it handed to them on a silver platter, having never won a Best In Group and been prepared to drive for miles in order to get those 6 pointers.

[becks]

That is one thing I have never understood about the Aus titles, why do you include points for dogs beaten in group/in show competition?

Do you have progeny and breeder stakes classes where a breeder can showcase their breeding at a show?

[jr_inoz]

Hi - I heard earlier today that apparently the requirements for a Grand Champion are being changed back to the old system and that there is going to be a new title called a Supreme Grand which will require 10 BIG or BIS (can't remember the details as it was a rushed conversation) - apologies if I've missed this elsewhere, I did a quick search but I'm completely useless at searching.

Supremre Grand *snort* Sounds a bit like "double secret probation" (for fans of Animal House) Do we REALLY need another conformation title to encourage a handful of exhibitors to hunt more points the length and breadth of the country.

How about this as a radical idea. No further titles or higher titles on any dog that hasn't produced the goods in the whelping box.

If a "Supreme Grand" Champion had to produce a minium of titled dogs (more for dogs than bitches), it might shake things up a bit. It's more than a tad ironic that a system that supposedly is about selecting the best breeding dogs has no factor within it that actually tests that the dogs can produce the goods.

I thought that was what the ROMA title was all about. Or does this only happen in Shetland Sheepdogs? Shelties get the letters of ROMA after their name if they produce champion progeny. It is 10 Champions for a dog and 5 champions for a Bitch.

I like the current Grand CHampion title where a dog actually has to show that it can beat something else. (Having to had group wins or 25 point challenges) there are a couple of GrCH out there on the old system that haven't beaten a thing. I don't begrudge them the Ch title, but if you can't pull a win against other dogs at a specialty or a group level then personally I don't think you can be called "grand" champion.

[Guest DBT]

I would like to see 2 extra classes added, maybe even 3. Once a dog has reached 100 they go into the Champion class and compete against other Champions. Once they have their 1000, they go in to Grand Champion class to compete against other Grands, maybe move to a Supreme Champ class at 10000. The wheat would still be sorted from the chaff because theoretically a shit hot puppy or junior etc could beat the Ch or Gr.Ch for BOB, and that same pup, junior etc could beat a Gr. Ch of another breed for BIG.

Then the Ch & Gr Ch's would still have In Show classes to fight out Ch in show , Gr Ch in show etc.

Surely beating dogs with similar cred would give more credence to the higher titles than going up against up & coming dogs week in week out?

Edited October 8, 2011 by DBT

[TessnSean]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

[hollee]

For what it is worth, I think that either a Bitch Challenge or Dog Challenge at Breed Specialty Shows should be accepted toward Grand Champion instead of the required Group wins.

This is excellence in the Breed and would include each breed equally whether rare or not. This would return the focus to within the breed where it should be instead of the Group wins where many seem to be focused on because of the all important points.

Of course a Group win is fantastic but it is in the breed ring first and foremost that really matters.

This is of course only my opinion and I am sure there are many that would disagree with my views, but hey that's life!

[Shaar]

I have a rare breed for my state, quite often the only one of the breed and we do not have a breed specialty down here. However, he's had 3 best in groups and I think we're sitting on around 250 points and he's not 2 yet. It's certainly not impossible for rare breeds, just when/if you do get a grand it makes it all the more special.

[yarracully]

For what it is worth, I think that either a Bitch Challenge or Dog Challenge at Breed Specialty Shows should be accepted toward Grand Champion instead of the required Group wins.

This is excellence in the Breed and would include each breed equally whether rare or not. This would return the focus to within the breed where it should be instead of the Group wins where many seem to be focused on because of the all important points.

Of course a Group win is fantastic but it is in the breed ring first and foremost that really matters.

This is of course only my opinion and I am sure there are many that would disagree with my views, but hey that's life!

This was raised in other areas before when the rule was changed and as it was pointed out there are some breeds that do not have a specialty. If that was the reason it was not included is something I am not aware of.But it is something to consider. Furthermore you have the problem of a breed where there is no specialist judge so therefore a breed specialty doesn't carry the same prestige as it could or should.

[jr_inoz]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

[TessnSean]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

[Paptacular!]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

There is an import Pharoah Hound in the NT who has won several BIS.

[D & D]

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

There is an import Pharoah Hound in the NT who has won several BIS.

Beat me to it Pappy :D

And she's recently become a Grand Champion!

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=17013

[-Megz-]

Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement.

Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going.

It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show?

What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded.

Sorry - but I don't agree with your assumption that people with views that the Gr CH should be tougher are people with Gr CH - I don't own a GR CH or even an Ch yet (soon I hope) but believe that the current rules are better than the old ones. A Gr CH needs to have shown that it has beaten something. The requirement of four 25 point challenges makes sure that this has happened. Also - a Belgian Shepherd was BIS at an all breeds show here in SA last year - so it does happen. This breed regularly wins at Group level because it is a fantastic example of the breed. It will get its grand easily (it might have it already actually - I am unsure - it has enough group wins to qualify though). Good examples of rare breeds do win at group level here in SA on a regular basis.

In terms of keeping people at shows - Dogzonline point score is doing that nicely .

One Belgian Shepherd in one State. Name me the last Leonberger or Pharoah Hound. The Dogzonline point score is keeping the Grand Champions showing. Look at who leads each State and breed. Point score won't keep me showing but a change back in the GC conditions probably will.

There have been 2 top winning Pharaoh's that I have personally seen shown in Darwin and there are a few scattered through NSW as well.

Wazza "Ch Breekama Wicked Warrior" amassed the following:

6 Best In Shows

3 Runner Up In Shows

18 Best In Groups

15 Runner Up In Groups

He had amassed over 900 points towards his grand championship before he passed away unfortunately.

Every breed has that "one" dog but you know what that's what it should be! If the breed is rare we may only ever see 1,2 or 3 super quality, worthy of a Grand Championship title dogs. This is numerically less than the breeds you may have mentioned but the percentage is probably the same. If it's 1 Grand Champion per 1000 dogs breed then of course it looks like there are more Staffords (have you seen how many are listed on the Breeders page?)

Personally I do not own a Grand Champion, I have shown someone else's dog with great success and got this Pug's Grand (there was less than a dozen Grand Champion Pugs at the time) and she would qualify under the new system even though she won hers well before it came in. The other thing I remind myself every time I go to a show? I have dogs that can and have beaten Grand Champions. The Pointer I show won BIG over a Grand Champion and then went RUIS beating another Grand Champion just last night. He has just starting to come into his own and get some big wins under his belt, if I'd stopped showing his after he was titled and when he was only winning the occasionally class in group etc I would have missed out on the last 6 shows were he has won 1BIS, 1RUIS, 2BIG, 3RUIG. I am proud to show this boy to these achievements even if he never gets enough points to get his Grand.

I love to win as much as the next person but I took a huge step back recently and went "f*ck this, this is meant to be fun and I am going to have fun" and I have had the best time going to shows since. Doesn't matter if we lose because my friends might win and I am thrilled to be a part of their wins and to cheer them on. I would continue to show if it went back to the old, old system and there was no Grand Championship title at all but that's probably just me.

Edited October 9, 2011 by -Megz-