ruthjones Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Hi, I have come by some knowledge (directly from the breeder concerned) which concerns me a bit, specifically regarding disease carrying breeding stock, and at least one affected pup from a litter, and their choice not to inform the purchasers of the other pups from the litter. Is anyone in a position to advise me on the best course of action. Would rather not put full details on the forum for public viewing but will be supplied to someone in a position to advise me. Thanks Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Hard to advise really - depends on the breed and the disease doesn't it. I mean a dobermann affected with vWD can live a normal life - it needs extra care under surgery but they generally live a normal life. We choose to breed with dna vWD & Cardio tested and clear / carrier dogs but not everyone does this. Really need to know breed and disease before giving advise - and then I think it needs to be someone within that breed who understands the disease and how it affects a dog in its life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Depends on the disease and the breed, and by that I mean how likely it is that the other pups will sicken and become seriously illl/die. Ultimately, unless you have legally obtained copies of a vet report that lists microchip numbers and says each of these pups is going to get a disease, you leave yourself open to all sorts of drama if you say something to purchasers. If one of those purchasers is someone likely to use the dog in a breeding program I might, depending on the situation, suggest that they ask the breeder about X problem. For anyone who has half a brain, this is a big clue to check something out without you actually having made an accusation. Otherwise the answer is boring - be part of the solution. Don't be the kind of person who supports witch-hunting, or who gets into the schadenfruede when a problem arises in a competitor's stock, have good answers when discussions about health come up, etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Hi, I have come by some knowledge (directly from the breeder concerned) which concerns me a bit, specifically regarding disease carrying breeding stock, and at least one affected pup from a litter, and their choice not to inform the purchasers of the other pups from the litter. Is anyone in a position to advise me on the best course of action. Would rather not put full details on the forum for public viewing but will be supplied to someone in a position to advise me. Thanks Ruth cant answer without more info. Depends what the disease is and what the pups will be used for. If they are not affected but go out for pets for example. However, in my opinion other breeders should be notified to enable them to add that into their knowledge base for their ability to profile pedigrees to try to dodge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthjones Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 to put this in context, it is cocker spaniels and pra, i have it in an email directly from her to me. Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 has she had them all tested ? If so does she know the others arent affected? Is she putting any out which are carriers with breeding papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthjones Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 has she had them all tested ? If so does she know the others arent affected? Is she putting any out which are carriers with breeding papers? she has had all adults tested, she has no idea if any of the others from the litter were also affected, regarding what she is selling with breeding papers, if you mean the pedigree papers then they will all have those, statistically at least half of the litter must be carriers. if they were sold on main or limited register I don't know myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 has she had them all tested ? If so does she know the others arent affected? Is she putting any out which are carriers with breeding papers? she has had all adults tested, she has no idea if any of the others from the litter were also affected, regarding what she is selling with breeding papers, if you mean the pedigree papers then they will all have those, statistically at least half of the litter must be carriers. if they were sold on main or limited register I don't know myself. If she has tested the adults, why did she do the mating that produced the puppy that has also tested as affected? It doesn't make sense to a do a mating like that and then just test one puppy, you would test them all. Are you certain this puppy is affected and not a carrier? If you are using DNA testing then you simply don't do a mating that could produce an any affected offspring. If the breeder did a mating likely to produce carriers then she would only need to test the one she kept to find out if it a carrier or normal. Anyone else breeding from the litter mates would need to test them before breeding anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkeyre Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Hi, I have come by some knowledge (directly from the breeder concerned) which concerns me a bit, specifically regarding disease carrying breeding stock, and at least one affected pup from a litter, and their choice not to inform the purchasers of the other pups from the litter. Is anyone in a position to advise me on the best course of action. Would rather not put full details on the forum for public viewing but will be supplied to someone in a position to advise me. to put this in context, it is cocker spaniels and pra, i have it in an email directly from her to me. has she had them all tested ? If so does she know the others arent affected? Is she putting any out which are carriers with breeding papers? she has had all adults tested, she has no idea if any of the others from the litter were also affected, regarding what she is selling with breeding papers, if you mean the pedigree papers then they will all have those, statistically at least half of the litter must be carriers. if they were sold on main or limited register I don't know myself. Expected Ratios.. Clear x Clear = 100% Clear Clear x Carrier = 50% Carrier 50% Clear Clear x Affected = 100% Carrier Carrier x Carrier = 50% Carrier 25% Affected 25% Clear Carrier x Affected = 50% Carrier 50% Affected Affected x Affected = 100% Affected. From the ANKC website: National Code of Practice for Hereditary Diseases Section 1 - Compliance This Code of Practice has been developed to conform to the ANKC Code of Ethics by which all members of each controlling body are bound, and represents the commitment of all members to breed only for the purpose of improving the quality of the breed. This Code of Practice for hereditary diseases shall apply in addition to any code of ethics which is in force in each state. Section 2 - Practical Application (1) Members will take responsible action to reduce the incidence of hereditary diseases in their breeds. (2) Where there is a control program, approved by the ANKC, covering a breed for disease(s) known or considered to be inherited, then breeders within the breed should participate in and comply with the requirements of the program. (3) Where an hereditary disease is recognised by the ANKC in consultation with the official breed club(s) to be a designated problem in a breed, and where there is a screening procedure or test for that disease approved by the ANKC:- (a) The owner of a stud dog should, before making the dog available for stud duty - (i) have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog for such hereditary disease: (ii) provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners of the bitch to be mated. (b) The owner of a bitch should, before mating her to a dog - (i) have a current official evaluation or test result for the bitch for such hereditary disease: (ii) provide the official evaluation or test result to the owner of the stud dog (4) The ANKC recognises that before approving a screening procedure or test for an hereditary disease that procedure should be:- (a) scientifically validated (b) reliable © readily available (d) cost effective (5) Before any puppy or adult animal is sold, the prospective owners should be advised that the seller has taken all reasonable steps to comply with the Code of Practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthjones Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 dancincbs - she had all the tests done after the rest of the pups from that ltter were sold, (from what i gather) prior to that she had no idea about which bitch's and dog's were carrier's etc she had all her adults tested because as she has both sexes she sometimes interchanges the combination of parents for a litter, she is now careful that she only ever mates a carrier to a clear and never two carrier's together. parkeyre - can you give me an idea of where to find the lists of recognised hereditary diseases - surely the prevalence of pra would mean that it would be on the list thanks Ruth Jones p.s. I didn't start this thread to drag anyone through any trouble, I was just concerned about other people that may have purchased a pup from this litter that i think in the circumstances should be notified to at least have their pup tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkeyre Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) parkeyre - can you give me an idea of where to find the lists of recognised hereditary diseases - surely the prevalence of pra would mean that it would be on the list I don't know much about the Cocker Spaniel as they are not a breed that interests me, but found this page (http://www.thecocker...o.uk/health.htm) to be informational. I have used the below three companies to perform health testing on my own breed. This is what I have found for the Cocker Spaniel. I hope it is helpful. http://animalnetwork...php?breedid=148 Familial Nephropathy Kidney Disease Progressive Retinal Atrophy Eye Disease http://asaplab.com.a...kerspaniel.html Progressive Rod Cone Degeneration Australia / NZ statistics: 54.95% of dogs tested were either carriers or affected Autosomal Hereditary Recessive Nephropathy Australia / NZ statistics: 8.49% of dogs tested were carriers Phosphofructokinase Deficiency Australia / NZ statistics: No information is currently available - keep checking this page for updates http://www.vetdnacen...lt.php?breed=39 Degenerative Myelopathy DNA Test Phosphofructokinase Deficiency DNA Test Uric Acid DNA Test (Hyperuricosuria) Edited October 9, 2011 by Parkeyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 dancincbs - she had all the tests done after the rest of the pups from that ltter were sold, (from what i gather) prior to that she had no idea about which bitch's and dog's were carrier's etc she had all her adults tested because as she has both sexes she sometimes interchanges the combination of parents for a litter, she is now careful that she only ever mates a carrier to a clear and never two carrier's together. If she has only had the testing done since the litter was sold then, yes, she has an absolute legal and moral obligation to inform her puppy buyers that their puppies could also be affected. Regarding the bolded bit above, is this person a registered breeder? If so I would hope she changes the parents around and also uses outside stud dogs. There is no excuse in a common breed like Cockers for just using your own studs. Each litter should be carefully thought out and the best dog seleced for each bitch, no matter who owns him or where he lives. A sure sign of someone out to just breed for profit in a common breed is that they only ever use their own stud dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthjones Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 parkeyre - thanks, I'll check out the links dancinbcs, yes the testing was only done since the litter was sold yes she is a registered breeder and advertises pups on dogzonline, not sure exactly how she chooses the parents for each litter so i won't make assumptions there, beyond her telling me that she now only breeds her carrier to clears, since originally she had selected a pup from the litter to use in her program, whether for breeding or showing or both im unsure, but when she had him tested he is affected. so she had him desexed and is now careful not to create litters where other affected pups could be created. I guess now I am just wondering whether I have any responsibility to report the situation to any canine council etc, I did try and suggest to her to tell the other purchaser's from the litter in question, but she didn't see it as necessary and I'm not really sure what to do from here. Thanks Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sniffalot Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) .. Edited November 6, 2011 by Sir Sniffalot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwarzbear Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hi Guys, It seems one of the labs doing DNA testing in Melbourne is unreliable with their results. Was discussing this lab and my dismay at their unprofessionalism with my vet. He mentioned that a client had a dog tested came back clear as was the mating partner but produced affected progeny which cannot happen. This was not an isolated icident. Actually took advice from this list members and sent my DNA requirements to the USA. What a difference in dealing with them. Results back in 7 days as against 15 by the lab in Melbourne plus it was cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Hi Guys, It seems one of the labs doing DNA testing in Melbourne is unreliable with their results. Was discussing this lab and my dismay at their unprofessionalism with my vet. He mentioned that a client had a dog tested came back clear as was the mating partner but produced affected progeny which cannot happen. This was not an isolated icident. Actually took advice from this list members and sent my DNA requirements to the USA. What a difference in dealing with them. Results back in 7 days as against 15 by the lab in Melbourne plus it was cheaper. Was this for PRA - only one lab in Australia does PRA genetic technologies? Used them for my dogs - hope all my results are acurate!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacuna Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hi Guys, It seems one of the labs doing DNA testing in Melbourne is unreliable with their results. Was discussing this lab and my dismay at their unprofessionalism with my vet. He mentioned that a client had a dog tested came back clear as was the mating partner but produced affected progeny which cannot happen. This was not an isolated icident. Actually took advice from this list members and sent my DNA requirements to the USA. What a difference in dealing with them. Results back in 7 days as against 15 by the lab in Melbourne plus it was cheaper. Would you be able to tell me which lab you used in the US - have pups to test so wouldn't mind giving them a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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