Ballan Puppy Farm Protest

[Guest Black Obsession]

I really shouldn't bother knocking my head against a brick wall. No doubt you will just repeat your statement that because ethical standards aren't being enforced in this country that we should assume that every breeder is evil and shut them all down. I feel sorry for those who have fallen for the hype and want the baby tossed out with the bathwater...

I haven't stated anywhere: "...that because ethical standards aren't being enforced in this country that we should assume that every breeder is evil and shut them all down."

Edited October 4, 2011 by Black Obsession

[experiencedfun]

Steve, I understand where you are coming from about people posting when this 'puppy farm' has not even commenced, but I can assure you that Mr Attard has been breeding very large numbers of various breeds and registering them with VCA for a very long time. He also breeds under another name but I cant think of it atm.

[Steve]

Steve, I understand where you are coming from about people posting when this 'puppy farm' has not even commenced, but I can assure you that Mr Attard has been breeding very large numbers of various breeds and registering them with VCA for a very long time. He also breeds under another name but I cant think of it atm.

I am aware of that and the major part of all of this that distresses me is that I have to appear to be defending those whom I would prefer not to defend .

if we are protesting commercial breeders then call them commercial breeders and not puppy farmers. That way we are all clear about what it is we are protesting and why.

In this case there is the VCA, police, RSPCA and Councils responsible for ensuring his animals are treated appropriately and in this case he only gets to breed dogs - and keep dogs on his property on the condition that he complies with mandatory codes because he did what was asked of him and applied for a DA and has agreed he will not be puppy farming [ keeping his dogs in substandard condition]

We know where he is and he is able to be monitored to ensure he complies with what he has to comply with

Now clearly the whole thing is centred around the fact that he is going to be primarily motivated to be breeding dogs for profit - which is seen by some to be a higher risk factor for keeping dogs in substandard conditions.

O.K. so we protest people breeding dogs based on their motivations and what one group feels is a higher risk to have dogs suffering.in case their dogs suffer - not because their dogs are suffering .

Then what - do we protest people breeding purebred dogs because some of their dogs suffer when people are only going after a champion ? What numbers or criteria do we use to determine whether one person has one motivation or another. Is someone who owns 30 dogs who says they dont make money but is breeding for the betterment of the breed a commercial breeder? Someone who breeds 5 working dogs for 20,000 each - are they breeding commercially? If you have 10 fertile bitches are you breeding commercially or is it a higher number than that ? If you keep your dogs in crates in a spare bedroom and NEVER let them out and let them live in their own shit until some of them die and allow any other in the crate to walk over the dead bodies and sleep on them for months until they die too but you tell me its for the betterment of the breed is this O.K. because they say its not for money?

I condemn puppy farms [ places which breed dogs in substandard conditions] and urge everyone to report them to the authorities when they are located.

I work for the closure of puppy farms and we view the people involved as criminals. I do not protest against someone in case they muck it up because of their motivation for breeding

The minute we start to yell about what someone MIGHT do you may as well wave good bye to all breeders and if PDE didnt show you the threat - nothing will.

The minute we flog someone for applying for a DA to breed dogs we stop all others from applying and increase the risk of those in the boonies hiding out in sheds with no accountability.

[experiencedfun]

exactly right Steve

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

I'm with Black Obsession in that I think it's wrong to breed dogs in a commercial setting while the dog overpopulation issue is so rampant. If a commercial operation is on a level that it has enough staff to ensure the dogs and puppies are getting exercise, socialization, training, enrichment and attention on a daily basis, as well as providing proper levels of nutrition and health care, then that would be, if not perfect in my eyes, then acceptable in terms of care for the dogs, though I would still not support this kind of operation on the basis of the overpopulation issue. But I am yet to see any facility like this.

The current laws that are in pace do not ensure that these things are happening in commercial operations and that's why I do not support them - weather or not they are applying for council permits to breed hundreds of dog a year.

What would you do, Steve? Support the fact this puppy farm is opening, you think it's ethical and responsible to commercially breed 50 dogs? Let him go ahead, and only act once the dogs were suffering? I ask because I'm baffled by your stance, that's all.

[dog_fan]

I have read all the posts and I for one will never have a rescue dog so telling me there are plenty in the pound means little to me and as they are not a dog I would purchase.

If we do not have and agree to the definition of a puppy farmers and we protest outside peoples homes who have behaved in a lawful fashion then we become vigilantes which I find extremely distasteful apart from the fact it is an unlawful way to behave.

If we become vigilantes in this area where does it stop? Do we then turn on people we do not like or agree with how they live and if we don't then do we accept others have a right to be vigilantes in that area?

Vigilantes behave in an ugly fashion just look at the KKK if you want to see how it looks to the rest of the world.

[BJean]

I'm with Black Obsession in that I think it's wrong to breed dogs in a commercial setting while the dog overpopulation issue is so rampant. If a commercial operation is on a level that it has enough staff to ensure the dogs and puppies are getting exercise, socialization, training, enrichment and attention on a daily basis, as well as providing proper levels of nutrition and health care, then that would be, if not perfect in my eyes, then acceptable in terms of care for the dogs, though I would still not support this kind of operation on the basis of the overpopulation issue. But I am yet to see any facility like this.

What is the overpopulation issue?

The current laws that are in pace do not ensure that these things are happening in commercial operations and that's why I do not support them - weather or not they are applying for council permits to breed hundreds of dog a year.

What would you do, Steve? Support the fact this puppy farm is opening, you think it's ethical and responsible to commercially breed 50 dogs? Let him go ahead, and only act once the dogs were suffering? I ask because I'm baffled by your stance, that's all.

What is an ethical and responsible number of dogs to own?

How many dogs does one person own to fit into this notion of ethical and responsible?

What is a puppy farm?

I am a puppy farm if I take my dogs and apply for a DA in Vic.

Edited October 4, 2011 by lilli

[Steve]

I'm with Black Obsession in that I think it's wrong to breed dogs in a commercial setting while the dog overpopulation issue is so rampant. If a commercial operation is on a level that it has enough staff to ensure the dogs and puppies are getting exercise, socialization, training, enrichment and attention on a daily basis, as well as providing proper levels of nutrition and health care, then that would be, if not perfect in my eyes, then acceptable in terms of care for the dogs, though I would still not support this kind of operation on the basis of the overpopulation issue. But I am yet to see any facility like this.

The current laws that are in pace do not ensure that these things are happening in commercial operations and that's why I do not support them - weather or not they are applying for council permits to breed hundreds of dog a year.

What would you do, Steve? Support the fact this puppy farm is opening, you think it's ethical and responsible to commercially breed 50 dogs? Let him go ahead, and only act once the dogs were suffering? I ask because I'm baffled by your stance, that's all.

According to what this guy has in his application all of those things will be covered .If they werent he wouldnt have been able to win on appeal. He has never been found guilty of anything other than being up front about why he breeds dogs.

The current laws which are in place do ensure all of these things are happening in commercial operations and if people are breeding puppies and not finding a market for them then they will stop breeding them .

While ever they can find homes and so can rescue who "save " pregnant dogs then there is no over population of dogs.There clearly is an over population of irresponsible owners.

What would I do ? What I am doing . He applied for and was given the nod for a DA for 50 dogs - so what ? Having a DA is no evidence this is a puppy farm.Someone who keeps dogs in substandard conditions.

I can see evidence it is a commercial breeder but thats not a puppy farm.

AND FOR THE RECORD I dont think its ethical or responsible to breed 1 dog let alone 50 regardless of your goal unless you do what you need to do to ensure you dont compromise on their welfare.

Of course you have to let him go ahead and only act if the dogs are suffering - because what is the alternative? Stop EVERYONE breeding dogs regardless of their stated motivation in case their dogs suffer? Where will dogs come from? You have determined that breeding commercially means dogs are more likely to suffer - perhaps they are but there are more people than you few who think dogs will suffer if they are in bred, or bred for the show ring , or bred for sledding or bred for humans to use as pets etc.

The goal is to have everyone who breeds dogs regardless of their stated motivation,regardless of how many they own being held accountable , easy to see and easliy monitored to ensure no dogs suffer. In order to do that we need people to be rewarded when they apply for Da's rewarded when they are doing it right and punished when they dont . In order to punish them we have to catch them and it takes much longer to catch them out if we send them underground. How on earth do you seriously expect someone will do what we are asking them to do and apply for a DA to bring on what is dealt to them even before they begin.

Do you think small breeders will do this to themselves? less small breeders = more dogs bred in large kennels.

Do you seriously think that by doing this you will talk the guy out of it or change the verdict of the appeal. do you seriously think anything you do will stop peopel having the right to breed dogs commercially?

All you do is undo everything we do to encourage them to be open and accountable and teach them what they need to know to ensure their dogs are given the best possible quality of life.

And edited to ad by me saying he has the right to apply for a DA and get one isnt the same as supporting him. Its about the big picture. Something which seem to allude people who break the law and have no regard for the rights of people as they call for the rights - not welfare of animals.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

So what is the point in everyone joining forces against puppy farmers if none of us can agree on what is a puppy farmer.

If a puppy farmer is what you have defined it as then why are you protesting this one- they havent even started yet - so how are they breeding dogs in rotten conditions?

If you are answering me then i was only stating what i believe to define a puppy farm. I haven't said anything abt protesting against whoever is opening a facility, all i did was say what my definition of a puppy farm is!

I understand what you were doing was telling me what you think a puppy farm is - but that isnt the same as the RSPCA Australia and every other group who agreed upon a definition to be used.

What I was saying is that it isnt possible for anyone to be protesting puppy farms until we all agree on what it is we are protesting. It seems to me that will never happen.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Steve

[raz]

There, they released 50 helium balloons in recognition of the 50 dogs the facility will house.

I'm amazed no one has commented on this yet. So these 'animal rights' loonies want to protest a dog breeding establishment that doesnt even exist yet but they think it's perfectly acceptable to release helium balloons into the environment which will then slowly kill the wildlife that swallow them? Nice move. Clearly wasnt thought through very well, was it.

[Steve]

They also want the right to camp at someone's property, runaround trespassing and entering enclosed lands illegally ,stealing their property and make their lives hell because they dont agree with what they do but also complain when they have to move 3 times in one year to hide away from people who dont agree with them.

:rofl:

[raz]

They also want the right to camp at someone's property, runaround trespassing and entering enclosed lands illegally ,stealing their property and make their lives hell because they dont agree with what they do but also complain when they have to move 3 times in one year to hide away from people who dont agree with them.

:rofl:

It's amazing, isnt it. And they wonder why people call them irrational loonies

[toy*dog]

I am a reg breeder and also show my dogs and i always wanted to save a rescue cross dog (desexed), so i got an oppotunity to do this 5 years ago. i know that some of you said that you would never consider a rescue owning purebred dogs but there are some people that would, even having reg pedigrees and i know of many ANKC exhibitors/breeders that also take in rescues of any description and rehome them as well. I think when they say rescue a dog rather than buying from a commercial puppy farm/dog breeding facility they are mostly referring to the pet owning public and as my dog proves not all cast offs make rotten pets as some people believe this to be the case, they are in the pound, rescue organisations etc. because they are a problem.

round and round we go again on the merry go round. i think many have not woken up to the fact yet that when you protest about "puppy farms" you are actually protesting about all breeders as the animal rights people do not know enough about the dog world (know that one for a fact speaking to one of them myself), they are spouting off about how a dog should be bred but really it begs the question do they all believe that no dog should be bred at all no breeders so where will they get their dogs from when the shelters and pounds dry up because they want to ban all breeding of dogs no matter if you are an ethical ANKC breeder or a backyard breeder or a commercial dog facility breeding oodles it is all the same to them. there is no defining, all the commercial dog breeding facilities all according to them treat their dogs like crap and they all breed for money.

this is what steve and others are trying to tell you all.

and my gosh, i knew that surname sounded familiar, is this person also a VCA breeder breeding pedigrees? but i think he stated somewhere he wants to breed oodles too. although all the stuff im reading is getting mixed up with the animal rights people statements.

when they protest like this they are still not giving the public other options clearly of what they can do to not support large scale breeders like this. once again, it may be deterring "farmers" applying for permits etc. but it is show casing to the public not to buy from these places and not to buy from petshops. sure, protesting wont get them anywhere as VCAT has made their decision. i still believe ultimately it will be changed attitudes with the public in maybe years to come that will stop these large scale facilities- i can only hope, and yes, if we make laws where it makes it harder for these large facilities to make a buck becasue they have to test all their stock and breed to a certain standard then this i believe could be their downfall but animal rights groups do not know enough about the dogworld to bring about that change about testing etc etc. groups like MDBA and ANKC etc will have to help in that. i read that ANKC is now stating that they want a law brought in that RSPCA need to test their dogs for PRA, HD and other genetic problems to ensure the public is getting a healthy dog. so thats the start of a small step.

i think all these ppl are protesting about people "farming" animals on a large scale when healthy dogs die in pounds it is such a waste of life. i mean i agree but also we need to look at the big picture.

and they have gone after reg ANKC breeders too, claiming this and that and the other - ANKC breeders have gone after ANKC breeders setting animal people on to each other. so i think to myself after talking to them watching them for a long time. reading and listening to conversations in the background, that really they are looking to me like they want to shut down ALL BREEDERS no matter what you do ethically or not, and to stop breeding full stop as they see it all as cruel - to trespass onto people's property and do it under the umbrella as "saving animals". So what is stopping them coming into my property or your property and claiming we aren't looking after our dogs, we have too many (what number they define as too many?) and then stealing our show dogs our good breeding dogs? all under the umbrella of saving dogs and all they have to do is say "puppy farmer" then they get the public on their side? we will have no hope in hell. PDE has not been our friend, now everyone is quoting sentences out of this stupid program. now all ANKC breeders who breed and show their dogs are evil and cruel in some of the public's eyes.

no matter what you say you do, look after your animals or are an ethical breeder we are all the same in their eyes even if you do rescue yourself you can still be a "puppy farmer" in their eyes.. we are all liars and cheats and out to treat our animals like crap if you breed dogs full stop.

Edited October 4, 2011 by toy*dog

[Guest Black Obsession]

For those of you who are interested, here's a link to a website that gives a clear definition of 'what is a puppy farm?'

http://petsaustralia.org/the-big-issues/puppy-farms/

[Steve]

For those of you who are interested, here's a link to a website that gives a clear definition of 'what is a puppy farm?'

http://petsaustralia...es/puppy-farms/

So lets assume that will do us then - this is the definition of a puppy farm.

Quote - LETS DEFINE THESE EXACTLY AS THEY ARE – SUBSTANDARD BREEDING OPERATIONS end quote

So why are people wanting to protest this breeding operation? It doesnt even exist yet but we protest it in case it is a substandard breeding establishment some time in the future - surely you can see this is not making any sense.

[raz]

For those of you who are interested, here's a link to a website that gives a clear definition of 'what is a puppy farm?'

http://petsaustralia.org/the-big-issues/puppy-farms/

I stopped reading at 'Animal Activists'

[Guest Black Obsession]

For those of you who are interested, here's a link to a website that gives a clear definition of 'what is a puppy farm?'

http://petsaustralia...es/puppy-farms/

So lets assume that will do us then - this is the definition of a puppy farm.

Quote - LETS DEFINE THESE EXACTLY AS THEY ARE – SUBSTANDARD BREEDING OPERATIONS end quote

So why are people wanting to protest this breeding operation? It doesnt even exist yet but we protest it in case it is a substandard breeding establishment some time in the future - surely you can see this is not making any sense.

I'm not interested in 'converting' you to my way of thinking, so why are you trying to convert me to yours? That's honestly what it feels like. You sound like you're trying to tell me how to think. It's a real turn off! We obviously have different points of view and that's okay with me.

I've already explained my reasons and I'm not going into it again. I'm sorry that they don't make sense to you (and I don't mean that in a patronising way)

[Steve]

For those of you who are interested, here's a link to a website that gives a clear definition of 'what is a puppy farm?'

http://petsaustralia...es/puppy-farms/

So lets assume that will do us then - this is the definition of a puppy farm.

Quote - LETS DEFINE THESE EXACTLY AS THEY ARE – SUBSTANDARD BREEDING OPERATIONS end quote

So why are people wanting to protest this breeding operation? It doesnt even exist yet but we protest it in case it is a substandard breeding establishment some time in the future - surely you can see this is not making any sense.

I'm not interested in 'converting' you to my way of thinking, so why are you trying to convert me to yours? That's honestly what it feels like. You sound like you're trying to tell me how to think. It's a real turn off! We obviously have different points of view and that's okay with me.

I've already explained my reasons and I'm not going into it again. I'm sorry that they don't make sense to you (and I don't mean that in a patronising way)

Im not trying to convert you to my way of thinking .I m trying to understand what you are talking about when you say you are against puppy farms.Im trying to explain why I think its so important for everyone protesting sonmething to agree they are protesting the same thing and clearly they are not.

[Erny]

i read that ANKC is now stating that they want a law brought in that RSPCA need to test their dogs for PRA, HD and other genetic problems to ensure the public is getting a healthy dog. so thats the start of a small step.

Genuine question : Does this mean that any dog in a shelter showing any sign of (eg) HD doesn't get a chance to be re-homed? If that's the case, I don't agree with this. The animals from shelters are mandatorily desexed so it is not as though it is a genetic issue that will be able to be passed on. There are people out there who would like to look after dogs for as long as the dog is happy and able to live with some quality in its life. This is OT to the vein of the thread and I do not intend to swerve away from that as there is some very good intelligent and informative conversation going on here. (I love the questions Steve fires off .... really raises slants on things that many of us might not have seen unless challenged for the answers. Steve.) If there is a simple answer to my question though, there may not be a need to start a new thread on this and so, if no-one minds, I'll leave this here in anticipation of the answer.

Thanks in anticipation.

Erny

Edited October 4, 2011 by Erny

[Sheridan]

Define Puppy Farm.

I'm rather more interested in how you define one, Steve.