Does Bsl Reduce Attack Rates?

[Law]

Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?

You're not deemed a troll because you disagree. I think you're a troll because of your completely obvious emotion invoking posts. Your just trying to piss people off. Simple.

[geo]

]They say "IT's Pitbull's now and once they're gone they'll pick on Roti's or Dobes or GSDs or etc." Of course this is unfounded.

Its not unfounded - it has happened in other countries. I am pretty sure you have been pointed to documents that demonstrate this.

Unfounded. Where is the proof? Links will be fine.

You'd get more respect and wouldn't be classed as a troll if you actually listened to what people were saying instead of spouting rubbish.

See, I'm a troll and get no respect because I disagree.

I'm not going to bother any further as you will only believe proBSL propaganda.

Show me some credible evidence not source from a Pitbull Advocate? Again links will be fine.

eg.

Toronto, Canada

Population 2,503,281

In a March 2008 Toronto Sun article, Toronto animal services reported that pit bull biting incidents

had dropped significantly since the adoption of the Dog Owners Liability Act 2005, an act that banned pit bulls:

"And reports of bites by pit bull type dogs have dropped dramatically.

In 2004, the animal services department received reports about 130 of the powerful animals biting humans and animals.

The numbers dropped by substantial increments in subsequent years: 71 in 2005; 53 in 2006; and 44 in 2007."

Zen Ruryk, "One endangered species," The Toronto Sun, March 2, 2008 (www.torontosun.com) (Archived by

You can check the offsite links from

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/06/cities-with-successful-pit-bull-laws.html or try

http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=481775

http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=481570

http://www.dogsbite.org/media/radio/93wibc-don-bauermeister-03052010.mp3

Just listen to the stream

The are plenty of examples of BSL working to reduce the incidents of dog bites but

the Pitbull Advocates will be very quiet about that as the BSL is generally focused on Pitbulls.

Again still no response about Darla Napora.

There are plenty of other breeds that have killed their owners.. but you don't see us banging on about them here. There was one thread that listed heaps but only to prove to someone else who wouldn't believe attacks by other breeds happened.

It seems you have an agenda against the breed... good for you. However it seems that you only want to believe 1 side of the story. There are plenty of well adjusted, socialised pitbull pets but you think we should just kill them because you're so right??

hmmmmm..

[Law]

Regardless of whether you like Pitbulls or not BSL is not the answer. You just can't judge an entire breed by the deeds of a few. It is so blindingly obvious what is needed: education for owners, the ones who create dangerous dogs. The whole thing is completely hysteria driven. BSL and the new laws in Victoria are genocide and we're letting it happen. No matter what breed the laws are targeting it is not right, we should all be banding together for all dogs not picking and choosing depending on our chosen breed.

[Cat]

[

You'd get more respect and wouldn't be classed as a troll if you actually listened to what people were saying instead of spouting rubbish.

See, I'm a troll and get no respect because I disagree.

Wow, that's so not what I said. See. not reading

Germany

http://www.doggroups...ogs-in-germany/

Italy

http://www.highbeam....1-80325055.html

http://rome.angloinf...aly/animals.asp

US

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4376

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4118

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4376

http://www.stopk9pro....links.php?ID=4

I also know people in the US whose insurance premiums are higher because they have a Shar Pei. Not really BSL but still stereotyping

there is undoubtedly more, but you can use Google too

Edited October 10, 2011 by Cat

[Clubsprint]

Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?

I'll assume you're addressing Darla Napora's fatal attack. She had had the dog since it was a puppy. She was a member of a Pitbull Action group. Are you

going to say that she must have mistreated the dog?

You're not deemed a troll because you disagree. I think you're a troll because of your completely obvious emotion invoking posts. Your just trying to piss people off. Simple.

How is my post "obvious emotion invoking"? I'm not trying to "piss people off". Show me where anyone that is not a Pitbull Advocate or AntiBSL is going to be annoyed by my posts?

Zara asked if BSL works. The Pitbull Advocates like yourself want to trot out the same old story of "BSL doesn't work". Blah Blah Blah. It does work, I've shown it does. Did you listen to the Radio Stream? Bet you didn't because it's not what you want to hear. Are you going to explain Darla Napora's fatal attack or do the usual Pitbull Advocates thing of "blame the victim"? Oh you've already done that "Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?" OK, away you go, tell us all about it?

I'm here to speak for the other side.

If you're not a Pitbull Advocate why would you get upset at my posts?

[mymatejack]

Someone should point out to clubsprint that of the 33 dog attack fatalities since 1979 in Australia,2 were attributed to pitbull or pitbull crosses. Someone should also ask clubsprint what he plans to do about the other 31 deaths

Edited October 10, 2011 by mymatejack

[geo]

Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?

I'll assume you're addressing Darla Napora's fatal attack. She had had the dog since it was a puppy. She was a member of a Pitbull Action group. Are you

going to say that she must have mistreated the dog?

You're not deemed a troll because you disagree. I think you're a troll because of your completely obvious emotion invoking posts. Your just trying to piss people off. Simple.

How is my post "obvious emotion invoking"? I'm not trying to "piss people off". Show me where anyone that is not a Pitbull Advocate or AntiBSL is going to be annoyed by my posts?

Zara asked if BSL works. The Pitbull Advocates like yourself want to trot out the same old story of "BSL doesn't work". Blah Blah Blah. It does work, I've shown it does. Did you listen to the Radio Stream? Bet you didn't because it's not what you want to hear. Are you going to explain Darla Napora's fatal attack or do the usual Pitbull Advocates thing of "blame the victim"? Oh you've already done that "Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?" OK, away you go, tell us all about it?

I'm here to speak for the other side.

If you're not a Pitbull Advocate why would you get upset at my posts?

You keep harping on about Darla Napora... yes she was a pitbull advocate, but nowhere do any articles relating to her death explain why the attack took place... Same as all the other attacks by other breeds.. no-one has learnt and they wont with BSL, that is a fact. BSL gets rid of one breed then the next will be in the headlines, and Joe Blogs will still be none the wiser as far as responsible ownership is concerned.

It sounds like you're not interested in truly helping the general public understand responsible ownership and understand what can lead to a dog biting you.... you seem more interested in the monster that the media portays..

I'd like to know what your stance is on Amstaffs, staffies, bull terriers, mastiifs, (i could go on) is? should they be banned too?

[Law]

Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?

I'll assume you're addressing Darla Napora's fatal attack. She had had the dog since it was a puppy. She was a member of a Pitbull Action group. Are you

going to say that she must have mistreated the dog?

You're not deemed a troll because you disagree. I think you're a troll because of your completely obvious emotion invoking posts. Your just trying to piss people off. Simple.

How is my post "obvious emotion invoking"? I'm not trying to "piss people off". Show me where anyone that is not a Pitbull Advocate or AntiBSL is going to be annoyed by my posts?

Zara asked if BSL works. The Pitbull Advocates like yourself want to trot out the same old story of "BSL doesn't work". Blah Blah Blah. It does work, I've shown it does. Did you listen to the Radio Stream? Bet you didn't because it's not what you want to hear. Are you going to explain Darla Napora's fatal attack or do the usual Pitbull Advocates thing of "blame the victim"? Oh you've already done that "Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?" OK, away you go, tell us all about it?

I'm here to speak for the other side.

If you're not a Pitbull Advocate why would you get upset at my posts?

where did I say I was not an advocate for Pitbulls? I'm an advocate for all dogs.

This thread is pretty much full of people against BSL, you know that.

"Zara, be prepared for all sorts of abuse if you come down on the side of BSL.

Pitbull advocates will accuse you of all sorts of things while they try really hard to quote you all sorts of figures to try and prove their case. They will make all sorts of rubbish claims whilst using other Pitbull Advocates to back up their myths. They encourage the all sorts of myths, falsifications and hysteria about BSL to scare owners of other breeds to back them up. They say "IT's Pitbull's now and once they're gone they'll pick on Roti's or Dobes or GSDs or etc." Of course this is unfounded. They'll accuse you of lying, or trolling and wont accept that you can be a dog lover and want to still want to eradicate these unpredictable liabilities." <----- this

You think Darla Napora is the first person to be killed by a dog? Are you trying to say that it is only Pitbulls that are capable of killing people. I wasn't there so I am not going to make any assumptions on what happened. Fact is that the victim does play a part in a dog attack, so does the owner but blame is being placed solely on the dog. Who is the one that trained it? Socialised it? Put it in that situation. The other issue is societies need to blame someone. Sometimes shit happens! It's terrible but it does. Killing all bully type dogs will not eradicate dog attacks.

You don't have to be a Pitbull advocate to be against BSL. I am not here to try and turn you into a Pitbull lover I am trying to make you see that BSL doesn't work and more, that the new laws in Victoria are just wrong. Just listen to what the experts say. This will not stop tragic incidents like what happened to Darla Napora. Your all caught up in blaming someone, how could this happen? We must do something now! That you are missing the logical answer. It is not just bully type dogs that attack people so how will eradicating them make society any safer?

[Clubsprint]

[

You'd get more respect and wouldn't be classed as a troll if you actually listened to what people were saying instead of spouting rubbish.

See, I'm a troll and get no respect because I disagree.

Wow, that's so not what I said. See. not reading

Germany

http://www.doggroups...ogs-in-germany/

Italy

http://www.highbeam....1-80325055.html

http://rome.angloinf...aly/animals.asp

US

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4376

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4118

http://www.akc.org/n...article_id=4376

http://www.stopk9pro....links.php?ID=4

I also know people in the US whose insurance premiums are higher because they have a Shar Pei. Not really BSL but still stereotyping

there is undoubtedly more, but you can use Google too

Firstly,if your not going to live in those counties I wouldn't be too concerned. Your links for

Germany and Italy seem dubious but I will find out directly as my inlaws are German.

I expect they'll be a lot stricter than here. They're like that.

How does any of this prove or disprove BSL?

Which one of the Saginaw Laws do you think is particularly onerous?

Paying the $20 Registration fee?

Keeping the dog in a pen with sides at least four foot high or

Notifing the City Clerk within one business day if the dog escaped,

attacked someone, has been sold, has died, or has been permanently

moved from the city. The Clerk must also be notified within one business day

if “there has been a birth of an offspring of the dog”.

Oh no, now we can't move to Saginaw, look how restrictive they are.

Lousianas out. Look what we have to do.

Under the proposal, owners of "Pit Bulls", Rottweilers, Chow Chows, German Shepherds, Doberman Pinschers, Boxers, and Akitas must:

Be 18 years of age or older

Not be a convicted felon

Have proof of vaccinations for their dog

Pay a one-time $50 licensing fee

Muzzle their dog when dogs are not on owner’s property

Microchip dogs

Keep dogs within the owner’s home or behind chain link, wooden, or electronic fencing.

[Cat]

You asked for links to show that BSL spreads to other breeds. all of those show that. Italy ended up banning 97 breeds before repealing BSL, but you would probably not read those links either...

It's pretty obvious you are not after an intelligent discussion.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Cat

[Law]

Did you see the amount of breeds on those lists? I think the point there is that it will not stop at Pitbulls, well it already has progressed...now all bully type dogs are at risk.

[Law]

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/the-problems-with-dog-bite-studies/

[geo]

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/the-problems-with-dog-bite-studies/

Clubsport, did you read this?

[Cat]

This bit was interesting and confirmed the German ruling

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Schalke.pdf

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The last two dog were pound rescues. One was a Ridgeback X Whippet and the other is a Kelpie X Jack Russel. No problem. It's not like the only X's are Pibull X's. I will say that last time I was at a shelter at least half the dogs seemed to have some sort of Staffy or Bully in them. GSD and Labs don't have a bad reputation and are used as forces and blind\care dogs so that would make that extremely unlikely. Agree?

Clubsprint

Under the current Victorian BSL both your pound rescues could be confiscated by any Victorian "authorised person" ie council ranger or police officer.

You can't prove the parentage of either of these dogs - you don't have ANKC papers and a vet would not be able to write a letter saying that either dog was "a particular breed" because they're cross breeds.

Superficially the ridgeback cross would look enough like a bull breed to get you into trouble and once the dog was impounded - there is no way to get it back - legally because you have no papers for it. That's how the law is written. Basically makes all cross breeds and unpapered dogs illegal.

Based on the behaviour of my dog, there is no terrier in her, only herding dogs. She refuses to kill anything but she can still be confiscated if I take her to Victoria. There is no exception for dogs belonging to tourists or grey nomads - in fact since they may not even be registered in Victoria even pedigree papers won't save them once the council ranger gets them.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Robbi]

People who are proponants of bsl need to open their minds and their hearts to the fact that there are no inherently bad/vicious breeds of dog. take the Dogo Argentine for example, although a banned breed here in Australia and bred to hunt Puma and wild Boar in its homeland it is also trained to be a seeing eye dog and assistance dog in Argentina.

What I really struggle with is that people who call themselves dog lovers can support such backward thinking legislation such as Victorias.

We need to follow the Calgary blueprint when it comes to dog management, they lead the way with non bsl dog management programs.

[Clubsprint]

Someone should point out to clubsprint that of the 33 dog attack fatalities since 1979 in Australia,2 were attributed to pitbull or pitbull crosses. Someone should also ask clubsprint what he plans to do about the other 31 deaths

Two deaths is two deaths that didn't need to happen.

Someone should ask mymatejack is 2 deaths OK by you?

Someone should ask mymatejack is it OK that two people die (probably children) so that you can have a Pitbull?

Incidently, taken from the article you refer to here, the killers have been a Siberian husky, four bull mastiffs, a rottweiler, and crossbreeds of boxer, greyhound, pit bull and mastiffs.I'd be concerned if I owned a mastif.

2 out of 32 equals approx 6%.

Someone should ask mymatejack does the number of Pitbulls represented as a percentage of the total dog population in Australia come anywhere near that?

I'll answer for you NO.

Pitbulls make up less than 2% of the dog population.

That would mean that the breed is over represented in deaths caused by attacks.

Also from the article you referred to In Canberra, however, RSPCA scientific officer Jade Norris says there is "some evidence that certain dog breeds have a greater genetic predisposition towards aggressive behaviour."

"They might also have a lower trigger point for aggression and due to their physical size and strength they may have a greater capacity to inflict serious injury compared to other breeds."

Ideal family dogs huh?

Linda Watsons research only talks about deaths, it doesn't talk about maulings and bites.

The evidence about the viciousness of these dogs and the danger they pose to society is overwhelming. The so called BSL in Victoria removes this danger from society. Someone should ask mymatejack is that a bad thing?

The ther 31 deaths are not my resposibility. Do you have a sugestion?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Clubsprint

[Law]

Oh.my.god. You are so good at missing the point.

No point continuing this discussion with you. You think BSL will stop dog attacks...you will soon see for yourself that this is not the case. BSL hasn't stopped those deaths from other dogs has it? What do you suggest? We ban all dogs? Education is the only answer.

[Clubsprint]

You keep harping on about Darla Napora... yes she was a pitbull advocate, but nowhere do any articles relating to her death explain why the attack took place...

Yes I do becuse most Pitbull Advocates want to pretend like t didn't happen.

You ,however ,are looking for a reason to blame the Victim for the fatal attack. Youkeep hrping on about "why the attack took place..." Why does it matter? Does anything that Darla may or may not have done justify a fatal attack? Should society be subject to dogs that may kill you depending on your behavior?

Same as all the other attacks by other breeds.. no-one has learnt and they wont with BSL, that is a fact. BSL gets rid of one breed then the next will be in the headlines, and Joe Blogs will still be none the wiser as far as responsible ownership is concerned.

Is knowing the answer to this question worth a life? 2? How many?

The Pitbull advocates often promote the fallacy of idiots moving from one breed to the next This is a lie. Not true and is not borne out by municipalities that have adopted BSL

which include these US states Alabama, Arkansas ,California, Colorado. Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky

Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota

Oklahoma, Ohio, Oregon Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia,

Wisconsin, District of Columbia

Many foreign countries have enacted breed-specific laws to protect citizens from dangerous dogs and to stop the importation of fighting dogs (pit bulls). Countries include Argentina, Bavaria, Bermuda, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Guyana, Israel, Italy, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Singapore, Spain, St. Kitts and Nevis, Turkey, the UAE, United Kingdom, Venezuela and parts of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Malaysia, China and Japan.

Didn't you listen to the Radio interview with Assistant City Attorney Don Bauermeister, there is a LOT of information about how BSL has worked in Council Bluffs, Iowa?

I'd like to know what your stance is on Amstaffs, staffies, bull terriers, mastiifs, (i could go on) is? should they be banned too?

I'm fairly happy with the legislation the way it is written although it doesn't go far enough AFAIK. Pit Bull, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bulldogs, and Yorkies, Whatever you want to call them, are all the same thing.

[Clubsprint]

You asked for links to show that BSL spreads to other breeds. all of those show that. Italy ended up banning 97 breeds before repealing BSL, but you would probably not read those links either...

It's pretty obvious you are not after an intelligent discussion.

Our legislation is very different in Germany, Italy or the US it is specifically designned to pick up Pittbull's among others. It is unlikely to "creep" to other breeds and there has been no talk of this .

Owners of GSDs, Dobes, Rotis would be well advised to keep them safe from being involved in any "incidents". Being that the liability laws have changed I don't see this as an issue.