How Good Are They

[Rebanne]

at the very least get her the "morning after' injections

And what would that achieve? It would abort this litter so she could come straight back into season, get out and get mated again, not to mention the risk of pyometra as well. The owner of this dog has proven herself far too irresponsible to own an entire bitch let alone raise a litter and if she wants to keep the dog it needs to be speyed now.

might give a little breathing space to convince the hopeless dog owner to do something

[persephone]

My guess is that this situation is complicated by the dog's owner being ill. Without knowing anything of her illness- perhaps wanting her dog to have puppies is some sort of compensatory thing ... ? Also , with no previous dog experience,and not being able to walk the dog - go to doggy events etc - maybe there is a lot of good info that she has failed to absorb via 'osmosis'.

This is not to condone what she is failing to do for her dog .. just looking at it a different way . I don't think going to a shelter watching puppies be euth'd is something I'd do to a friend ..but I think I would be borrowing books from the library & leaving around - books on dog care/whelping/puppy care , and asking my vet if there was any info they had which woul provide an insight into what may happen during pregnancy/whelping.

There is also THIS:

SO YOU WANT A LITTER OF PUPPIES?

WHY???

"To make a lot of money." Do you realize the expense involved in such items as advertising, vet bills, stud fee, food, etc., to name a few?

"Because it would be good for the children to watch the birth and play with the puppies as they grow up." Actually, the "gory" parts of the whelping repulse most kids, who are all too anxious to just skip the viewing of the miracle of birth you have planned for them to see. And a litter growing up is too rowdy for most kids who are usually totally disinterested or absolutely terrified of the leaping creatures with the sharp nails and teeth. If you want the kids to see a puppy grow up, it's usually better to buy one.

"Because we love Fido and we want one just like her." The chances of getting one "just like her" are slim indeed.

"Because everyone who comes to the house and sees Fido wants a puppy when she has a litter." Just wait until your litter of 12 is ready to go to their homes and watch all those people back out with excuses like...."The kids aren't old enough."...."The kids are too old now to be bothered with caring for a dog."......"We are going to have a baby."...."The rug is too new."...."The house is too small."...."We'll be moving in 3 months."....."Grandma doesn't like dogs."...."Our old dog hasn't died yet."....."It might not get along with the cat.".....and the list goes on and on!

"Because we really love little puppies." You'd better be sure you love them. You can't fully imagine how much is involved, such as the mess a litter makes. Can you put up with the cleaning that is constantly needed in caring for the litter? There is no way to explain how tired you get of scrubbing up after the puppies, their whelping box, the yard, kennel, or wherever they are kept. They dump their food and water the minute you put it down, step in it, and drag it through whatever else may be in the puppy box, and with 6 or 8 or 12 puppies, there's always something else to be cleaned up too!

Do you understand the RESPONSIBILITY you will have with a litter? It's not just Fido having the litter and caring for it until they are ready to go. Most of it is up to you and you're tied to the litter like any new mother, only you can't take the litter with you to your in-laws for the weekend, or anyplace else for that matter, so you'd better be content to spend all too long, because you have to be there to feed the puppies four times a day.

Now that you have some idea of what is involved other than playing with those cute, cuddly puppies and are still determined to breed, here's something else that should be considered.

Is your bitch of QUALITY to breed? Do you know her faults as well as her virtues? Does she meet with the standard of the breed? Is she in good health? Has she been tested free of the genetic defects associated with the breed? Do you have customers so you won't have to sell the puppies at a price below market value or take them to a shelter?

If you can answer "yes" to the above and haven't lost the determination to try your hand at raising a litter, then read on...

Get an opinion of your bitch from a few reputable breeders. Find out what they think are her faults and her virtues.

Learn about any problems that exist in your breed such as hip dysplasia, eye disorders, etc. Study the breed standard yourself so that you are familiar with it when looking at and evaluating possible stud dogs. Get several reputable breeder's opinions of a stud dog who will enhance your bitch. Go to see as many of the stud dogs and their offspring as you can.

After you have decided on a stud dog, take your bitch to the vet and have all necessary health clearances done ($$$$). She should have a general health check-up and the vet will let you know if any vitamin supplements are necessary. This exam should include: a worm check (take along a stool sample) , a heartworm check, brucellosis test, updating of vaccinations, blood panel. Don't forget, all this is going to cost money, but it's necessary, part of planning for a healthy litter.

Now while you wait for her to come into season, read all you can on your particular breed, breeding, whelping, and rearing puppies.

Start saving all your newspapers and have your friends do the same (remember what we told you about clean-up?) You'll need all the newspaper you can get your hands on.

Have a whelping box built or, if you are handy, build one yourself. More $$$$.

When the bitch comes in season, contact the stud dog owner with whom you have previously made arrangements regarding the breeding. You will be advised on when to bring your bitch. Plan to pay the stud fee at the time of breeding ($$$). There may also be a boarding charge if your bitch is to stay with the stud dog's owner ($$$). Be sure you understand in advance what the payment of the stud fee is guaranteeing. The suitable stud for your bitch may be some distance away involving additional traveling expense ($$$). Getting your bitch bred isn't always as easy as you might imagine and may require repeated trips to the stud dog.

After your bitch is bred you have about 63 more days to do more reading and thinking, and laced with the good thoughts about the precious darlings will be some horrible thoughts about what can go wrong and how much it will cost you, both financially and emotionally.

We hate to keep dwelling on this but things DO go wrong occasionally and you should be prepared in case it happens to you.

(1) What if your bitch has problems and requires a Cesarean section or other extensive vet services ($$$)?

(2) What if the puppies die?

(3) What if she is not in whelp or has a miscarriage?

(4) What are you going to do with 10 six month old puppies that you can't sell, give away, or have the heart to put to sleep? Do you have adequate facilities?

(5) What if your bitch can't or won't nurse the puppies? Are you prepared to feed them every two hours for the next three weeks?

(6) And worst of all, what if Fido dies while whelping or afterwards? Will it have been worth it?

The days pass, and Fido whelps her puppies without any problems, but you still have to take her to the vet to be checked over within 24 hours of delivery. She will probably get injections to prevent infections ($$$). Lucky for you, Fido whelped 10 healthy puppies.

They are almost 6 weeks old now and in two weeks it will be time to sell them. First they will all have to make a trip to the vet. Their check-up will include shots and a worm check with medication if necessary (10 x $$$).

Now that you know they are healthy and ready to go, you'll want a breeder to see just how gorgeous they are and how great you did on your first try. Of course, you think they are all show quality and worth show prices. But again be prepared because you might be told the following:

(1) The best male has only one testicle.

(2) The next best male toes out badly (but has both testicles.)

(3) The really pretty bitch has a bad bite.

(4) The smaller bitch has a proper bite but her topline is bad.

(5) The bitch with the prettiest head is cowhocked.

(6) There are four who are average, nothing really wrong but nothing outstanding either.

There is one who is show quality. The "show quality" one is the one you were going to keep just as a pet because the kids liked it best (another mouth to feed $$$) and you're feeling down at the breeder's opinion of your litter. But you're told to cheer up, one outstanding puppy is better than a lot of people get out of a litter and you should consider this a successful breeding, Some consolation when you were going to sell them all as show puppies!

Now you have your litter graded and priced accordingly and you are ready to sell them. By this time, are you knowledgeable enough about your breed to be the expert every buyer assumes you are? Are you prepared to answer questions on training, housebreaking, feeding, grooming, etc.? Are you prepared to answer these questions not only at the time of purchase, but months later or when someone calls at midnight because the dog isn't eating right? Can you direct buyers to obedience classes, breed handling classes, help them get into showing, recommend a vet, etc.? Remember, you are now the breeder and the responsibility doesn't end when a puppy is carried out the door. Do you have a pedigree ready to go with each puppy, as well as the registration forms? Are you prepared to advertise extensively ($$$) if needed?

If you have a good bitch and have bred to a stud dog owned by an interested breeder, they may send referrals to you, but don't depend on others to sell your puppies, and advertising expenses can really add up. Don't expect the buyers to flock to your door the day the puppies are ready to go. It may take weeks, or even months, before they are all sold. This results in lots of food costs and more trips to the vet ($$$).

We hope that if you breed your bitch you do it the right way and only for the right reasons and put lots of time, thought, and love into your decision.

THERE ARE TOO MANY UNWANTED PUPPIES PUT TO DEATH EACH YEAR DUE TO IRRESPONSIBLE AND IGNORANT BREEDING. DON'T LET ANY OF YOUR PUPPIES END UP THIS WAY.

Author Unknown

[Kirty]

I don't know pers. But if the OP informs her of the possible health problems (and if the dog has been roaming, who knows what might have knocked it up) then the owner is making an informed decision to breed with the dog regardless of knowing about the risks.

[persephone]

the owner is making an informed decision to breed with the dog regardless of knowing about the risks.

No argument from me as to that fact - but what is driving the woman to think that way? I prefer to imagine that it it is not a blatant disregard for the dog's welfare ..based on adequately processing information.

[Erny]

the owner is making an informed decision to breed with the dog regardless of knowing about the risks.

No argument from me as to that fact - but what is driving the woman to think that way? I prefer to imagine that it it is not a blatant disregard for the dog's welfare ..based on adequately processing information.

Some people don't want to know info and opinions that don't agree with what they want. I've had people shut their ears to things I have suggested/recommended/advised inside the first few words I've uttered. And it is not as though those people didn't know me. I think sometimes that it is people they respect, and this can often be people they are not so familiar with, who they will stop and listen to. (As an aside, have you ever had someone brush you off on a suggestion, only to have them come back with "great advice" that someone else gave them, that just coincidentally happened to be the same as what you originally told them, except that they didn't bother to listen and therefore treat their new-found revelations as something new, coming from someone who "really knows what they are about"?)

Edited October 1, 2011 by Erny

[persephone]

Yeah, Erny, I know ... just hoping it's something else.... thanks.

[Red Fox]

You can't desex someone elses dog. Her choice what she does with it not yours.

Have her read this: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/138099-to-your-friends-workmates-neighbours/page__hl__temperature

If she still wants to go ahead with it good luck to her.

[Talien]

Just so we have a face for the poor girl affected:

This is Elysia.

She has no papers. Parentage is 100% unknown.

She is healthy (as far as we know - she is being checked on tuesday), happy, friendly, easy to train (though not adequately as far as I personally am concerned) and a joy to be around.

Her owner has many health issues, she cannot walk her dog regularly and seems to be attempting to anthropomorphize her dog by stating "I don't want to take away her chance to be a mummy, she might like it".

Out of my love for the dog I do my best to train her, which she responds extremely well to, and I walk her when I can though she is not trained in loose leash yet which makes it very difficult. I also take her to the park or play with her in the yard as often as I can.

So far I have won twice today.

The dog is going to the vet. Not till tuesday when they have money, but she's going. I HOPE that the vet can talk some sense into my friend. I love my friend. She should not own a dog. Elysia should not be bred from. There are too many variables and she (and I) know NOTHING about breeding. Breeding is not something I (who respects dogs and their breeding) would ever get into on my own, not at least without a lot of help and support from someone who has a lot of experience. And certainly not in a rental property with no money!

I also managed to train her to take treats without snapping! (my fingers thank me) (though this win is ooc)

This whole situation makes me sick. I cannot and will not have her desexed without the owners knowledge. I will slam it home to her again, and again, and again, and again, and again that Elysia needs to be spayed, for her safety and for the pups as well.

Someone (sorry there were so many posts to read through) asked where these puppies would be sold. I have advised my friend that if she attempts to "sell" them then she is liable, and that she could be liable regardless. I don't remember the last time I saw a pet shop here in Ballarat selling puppies, a few years ago now I think. That is NOT an option here. Simply because I will not allow it, this much I can do, if Elysia is pregnant (most likely) and the pregnancy goes through to completion, then I will make sure that each puppy is appropriately placed with loving people. If they ever cannot keep the pup then they will hopefully be returned to us/susan. That said obviously we cannot control what happens to the dogs, but we will definitely make the new owners aware that we will be available.

I say us/we because I don't believe that the puppies or Elysia should be blamed for human stupidity.

If it comes down to it, I will home a puppy with me if I can, but I will do my best to make sure all these puppies (if they do come into being) are homed appropriately and loved. As Elysia should have been.

@Secretkei: Thanks for that I just gave it to her, I've been trying to hammer it into her and it's not working so I am trying the gentle approach stating that she needs to be educating herself and be prepared for the worst. I think that information has opened her eyes a little bit

Edited October 1, 2011 by Talien

[sandgrubber]

Elysia looks sweet . . . wonderful eyes.

I hope your friend appreciates your help . . . and can be brought around to taking your and the vet's advice. Sounds like puppies would be a very bad idea in any case, and doubly bad in that you cannot know anything about the sire. If he is SBT or AmStaff, there's a chance that the pups will be vulnerable to seizure under Vic's dangerous dog laws.

Edited October 1, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Talien]

I am hoping that they're neither amstaff-like or border collie x's. Being a country "town" a lot of pet owners seem to have border collies or crosses here in Ballarat, or at least they're the type usually wandering. They will be hard to home if they are. There are so many potential variables. If she does have puppies, I hope they at least look like labs, that way they have an ok chance at being homed well.

Update: Another Win!!!

I have managed to convince her that Elysia is safer inside during the day and at night. Little did we know but Elysia seems to have smartly taught herself to be fully house-trained, despite being an outside dog for the last 4 years. She will happily sit at the door and wait to go out and if you don't notice, she will "grumble" (?) at us hehe. I am so proud of her :D

Next up, desexing!

Also, what are "bitch pants"? O_o

Edited October 1, 2011 by Talien

[sandgrubber]

Also, what are "bitch pants"? O_o

The equivalent of sanitary napkins for dogs. More like pampers with a tail hole.

Edited October 2, 2011 by sandgrubber

[dancinbcs]

Keep up the good work trying to convince your friend to do the right thing. If she is too ill to walk the dog she is far too ill to raise a litter of puppies. Puppies are a lot of hard physical work with often many lost nights sleep for the owners at the start and the constant feeding and cleaning up of puppy pee and poo for the last four weeks at least. You have no idea how much poo a litter can produce until you have to deal with it. Then being Lab cross puppies they will chew and destroy everything they come into contact with.

I know you believe you will be able to find homes for the puppies but sometimes it just doesn't happen. The demand for large crossbred, especially black, puppies is very low. Without knowing what the sires are and having the current BSL laws in Vic could make finding homes for puppies of unknown parentage impossible. If there is the slightest chance they are Pitbull or Amstaff cross then you will not be able to sell them. If several dogs are following a bitch in season the one that actually gets to mate her is going to be the most aggresive, so that is also something to keep in mind.

When I worked for a shelter we regularly had part or whole litters of medium-large cross breeds surrendered because the owners had done everything they could think of and could not find homes for them. At some point they could no longer afford to advertise anymore or keep feeding growing puppies so had to surrender them. Unfortunately we had not much more chance of finding homes either and many of these litters were put down the day they came in. Basically if we already had one litter for sale all the others would be put down as they came in. We were lucky to find one home a week for large crossbred puppies and that was at a major shelter in a capital city.

You have all the good intentions in the world as do many people who raise unwanted litters at great expense of time and money but the reality is that after all that there is a better than average chance that most of these puppies will not find homes and will have to euthanised so please keep working on the owner to either get the bitch desexed or sign her over to you.

[persephone]

I know you believe you will be able to find homes for the puppies but sometimes it just doesn't happen. The demand for large crossbred, especially black, puppies is very low. Without knowing what the sires are and having the current BSL laws in Vic could make finding homes for puppies of unknown parentage impossible. If there is the slightest chance they are Pitbull or Amstaff cross then you will not be able to sell them. If several dogs are following a bitch in season the one that actually gets to mate her is going to be the most aggresive, so that is also something to keep in mind.

Agreed.

[Rozzie]

So what happened at the vet?

[Talien]

Elysia is healthy, probably pregnant too early to tell she goes for an ultrasound on the 28th (I think)

[Sandra777]

Was there any discussion about spaying her, aborting the pups without spaying her or what would happen if she became the proud mamma of 15 puppies with 15 different sires?

[poodlefan]

Elysia is healthy, probably pregnant too early to tell she goes for an ultrasound on the 28th (I think)

If her owner intends to go ahead and allow her to whelp, she's got a serious learning curve and a heap of money to spend.

How is her owner going to afford to whelp, raise, vaccinate and microchip a litter of puppies?

Edited October 8, 2011 by poodlefan

[mr.mister]

Elysia is healthy, probably pregnant too early to tell she goes for an ultrasound on the 28th (I think)

Why would anyone in their right mind allow their bitch to stay 'probably pregnant' to god knows what!?

Sorry Talien, I know she's your friend. I would seriously be cranking up the hints and suggestions now.. I really hope the vets suggest an abort/spay.

[Talien]

Knowing that people are going to go nuts about this please be thoughtful of your answers to this knowledge.

Elysia's owner is very religious and pro-life. Whilst the vet did suggest aborting and spaying, for the owner it is simply not an option she will consider. They have the monetary means to support their conviction should a litter occur. I have done my best and now am now working to educate her the best that I can on puppies and whelping however the vet will be heavily utilized. Hopefully my friend will learn from this experience and have her spayed after the fact.

[Rebanne]

so prolife that the dog is allowed to run loose while in season. It is only be good luck that the dog is alive and well. I asked before and I'll ask again. If she has to be tied outside on a chain because of the small amount of mess made whilst in season just where is this poor bitch going to whelp and raise her puppies? Religion is not an excuse to neglect your duty of care.