Pm's 'cavoodle'

[toy*dog]

DDs are not going to faze out. Pretty much everyone I know that owns one would buy another one.

Why is it going to be interesting if Julia's pup gets sick? Would it have been interesting if she had got a purebred and that had got sick??? That would not have been good publicity. I doubt very much her dog getting sick will make the news anyhow.

I hope her and her dog have a long and happy time together.

well i've come across the opposite pretty much everyone i know that has bought a DD has said they'll go to a "proper" breeder i.e. a reg breeder with my help. and its OMG puppy farms i didn't know anything about them before i got my pup. and OMG i don't want to contribute to that.

i will just be interested if the dog does end up with any genetic defect but i doubt too that we will hear about it, and i do agree that the farm will have probably covered themselves anyway. it was a long shot but just thinking out loud.

[toy*dog]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or anyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old.

i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument

there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad.

anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do.

Edited September 30, 2011 by toy*dog

[JulesP]

it was a long shot but just thinking out loud.

It sounds like you want her dog to get sick

[toy*dog]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

the focus is more on the farmer not the dog itself. but anyhow need to go,spent way too much time on here not getting any work done which is very naughty of me

Edited September 30, 2011 by toy*dog

[JulesP]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them.

The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up.

[Guest Black Obsession]

...it was a long shot but just thinking out loud.

Fair enough

I have to get on with my day, too. Thanks for your interesting contribution.

Seeya

[Steve]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or anyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old.

i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument

there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad.

anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do.

toy dog I wasnt addressing you personally I mean on the whole - everyone .

[Steve]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them.

The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up.

There is a whole heap more in that lottery than just coat type and size .the fact that coat can have that many combinations times that by 100,000 genes which can match and mix up in any combination .

[toy*dog]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them.

The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up.

as i said before many times testing is a tool that not enough breeders use true, but it should be used IMO with research and there is some amount of success this way. and this is not what farmers are doing 9 times out of 10 as i have grown up with several of them (unfortunately living in puppy farm central and they being locals) i know what they don't do adn what dogs they are using not great examples. steve touched on putting two breeds together more than likely you would get healthy dogs well what i know and what i have seen for many years she is talking about hybrid vigour, which only happens if both parents and their families are healthy and sound to begin with. it has this same info on DOL home page.

i find it hard to believe that the DD's stuck in farms have a family full of sound healthy dogs and before i had pedigrees my mother actually did have cross breeds they were known as mongrels in those days (1970's) and they even had their problems. Poodle crosses. accidental mating with pups unfortunatley.

yes all dogs can have health issues but its not about the dogs its about the people that breed them breeding them irresponsibly IMO not taking care to produce healthy pups.

[toy*dog]

...it was a long shot but just thinking out loud.

Fair enough

I have to get on with my day, too. Thanks for your interesting contribution.

Seeya

and im still here stuck in limbo somewhere

[toy*dog]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or anyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old.

i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument

there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad.

anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do.

toy dog I wasnt addressing you personally I mean on the whole - everyone .

oh okay, on the defensive today. LOL

[Steve]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them.

The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up.

as i said before many times testing is a tool that not enough breeders use true, but it should be used IMO with research and there is some amount of success this way. and this is not what farmers are doing 9 times out of 10 as i have grown up with several of them (unfortunately living in puppy farm central and they being locals) i know what they don't do adn what dogs they are using not great examples. steve touched on putting two breeds together more than likely you would get healthy dogs well what i know and what i have seen for many years she is talking about hybrid vigour, which only happens if both parents and their families are healthy and sound to begin with. it has this same info on DOL home page.

i find it hard to believe that the DD's stuck in farms have a family full of sound healthy dogs and before i had pedigrees my mother actually did have cross breeds they were known as mongrels in those days (1970's) and they even had their problems. Poodle crosses. accidental mating with pups unfortunatley.

yes all dogs can have health issues but its not about the dogs its about the people that breed them breeding them irresponsibly IMO not taking care to produce healthy pups.

Hang on thats not what I said or meant. There are a hell of a lot more genes and more variables in breeding dogs than just having to consider the recessives. I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

[JulesP]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or antyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

Agree with this Steve.

Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests.

This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder.

[toy*dog]

I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy.

[mita]

I'm disappointed but not surprised about Julia Gillard's decision to buy an oodle. I pegged her as a shallow problem-solver before the election (& Tony Abbott as a narrow problem-solver). And her very first announcement, following her election, was to say she'd solved the asylum seeker problem by sending them to East Timor. Then showing she didn't know who runs that country. And it's gone on, from there.

Anyone wanting to get some independent, in-depth information about getting a dog, only has to check CHOICE'S guide (that's the Australian Consumers' Association). Obviously, JG didn't:

Hybrid vs pure bred

In the last few years, so-called designer dogs (think ‘spoodle’, ‘cavoodle’ and ‘shnoodles’) have become a sensation. The concept comes from mixing two purebred dogs to create first crosses for a specific purpose, such as a low-shedding coat or particular aesthetic qualities.

Unlike pedigree dogs, these fashionable pups are not considered ‘breeds’ because they’re not registered with the Australian National Kennel Council (ANKC) and the breeders aren’t scrutinised for their breeding practices. This is why buyers should be extremely careful when purchasing a hybrid puppy.

Hybrid breeders often promise qualities such as “hypoallergenic”, “non-shedding” and “the best of both breeds” in their dogs. But how many of these claims are true? The Australian Veterinary Association’s Dr Anne Fowler says that while ‘hybrid vigour’ does exist for cross-bred animals, genetics remains largely a ‘numbers game’.

“I wouldn’t think that getting the best of both breeds is going to happen every time. It comes down to the individuals and their genetics,” she says. “It also depends on ‘penetrants’ — that is, how inheritable certain characteristics are and how well they manifest into something we see.”

Responsible breeders screen their breeding animals for common genetic diseases to ensure they don’t pass those genes to new generations.

Edited September 30, 2011 by mita

[toy*dog]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or antyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

Agree with this Steve.

Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests.

This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder.

what one persons definition of a puppy farmer is, is anothers ones definition of a good breeder. just had that issue with one breeder that has been dobbed into the animal welfare people by another breeder. so some in the breed club are saying this breeder is not a puppy farmer and others are saying they are.

[Steve]

I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy.

See this is what I dont want to have to do.

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc.

Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs.

[Steve]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or antyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

Agree with this Steve.

Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests.

This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder.

Ground hog day - What is a puppy farmer?

[toy*dog]

I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy.

See this is what I dont want to have to do.

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc.

Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs.

thats weird because i have a book on genes and it said that in order to get a recessive gene come through you need 2 carriers from both sides of the pedigree in order for the genetic problem to express itself. and i've come to the conclusion thats how we were able to get away with most of our dogs bar one with zero grades in their patellas. then we started mixing bloodlines and there started to be alot of unknowns in the pedigree and thats when i got that dog with grade 3. if you only have one parent affected it cannot be expressed it states it clearly i guess there are all different views on it maybe. i will have to find that again and i will put it up here but it will have to be tonight. not unless i can find it on the net with some reference to it from the book.

eTA: im sure its in one of hilary harmers books although it could be in the others i've got about 5-6 different books on breeding dogs.

Edited September 30, 2011 by toy*dog

[toy*dog]

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it .

Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are

Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or antyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

Agree with this Steve.

Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests.

This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder.

Ground hog day - What is a puppy farmer?

yep