Pm's 'cavoodle'

[poodlefan]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Edited September 30, 2011 by poodlefan

[Steve]

I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy.

See this is what I dont want to have to do.

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc.

Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs.

thats weird because i have a book on genes and it said that in order to get a recessive gene come through you need 2 carriers from both sides of the pedigree in order for the genetic problem to express itself. and i've come to the conclusion thats how we were able to get away with most of our dogs bar one with zero grades in their patellas. then we started mixing bloodlines and there started to be alot of unknowns in the pedigree and thats when i got that dog with grade 3. if you only have on parent affected it cannot be expressed it states it clearly i guess there are all different views on it maybe. i will have to find that again and i will put it up here but it will have to be tonight.

In order to have a recessive problem show as an affected dog you have to have both parents with the gene so when the genes match up you get a pup that has the problem.Carriers and not affected have no symptoms so unless you test you cant tell if the gene is in there - but you need two one from each parent.

You are talking about Patellas which hasnt been decided is a recessive problem but if it is you would need a gene from Mum and a gene from Dad to show an affected pup . If only the new dog had a recessive you wouldnt see it in your first generation but if you keep any for breeding and mate them with dogs whcih are also carriers you would then see it everywhere.

[Quickasyoucan]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

I thought cockers did too? My boss's spaniel x poodle has some bad stuff going on with its eyes not sure if it is PRA (I did ask him) but it appears to be going blind at around 7 years of age.

[Steve]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA.

edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand

the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA .

In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Steve

[toy*dog]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA.

edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand

the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA .

In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

forgot about PRA having x-linked and Prcd, it said cocker can have that type but in cavs it doesn't actually list what type that breed can get. Poodles i didn't see poodles either. so i see that they have to match up in order for PRA to be expressed. im rather talking about patella luxation although we cannot as yet DNA test for the gene its just a matter of feeling for it, it would help if we could but they are saying we cant' and never will be able to. and i guess thats the same as PL's cousin HD.

[Quickasyoucan]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA.

edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand

the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA .

In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

Steve sorry for those non-genetically inclined what does that mean?

That theoretically a lab dad and a poodle mum could have the same 'strain' of PRA?

Also why do they have to be registered to be tested?

But a cav and a poodle cant as they don't have the same "strain" for want of a better word?

Just curious

Edited September 30, 2011 by Quickasyoucan

[LizT]

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them.

The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up.

There is a whole heap more in that lottery than just coat type and size .the fact that coat can have that many combinations times that by 100,000 genes which can match and mix up in any combination .

And that is why many people are drawn to the uniqueness of the randomly breed mutt.

In the belief that "it wont happen to me" something people are good at in general terms. Most would be buying their DD's and Purebred dog with fingers crossed hoping for a positive outcome and a happy long life for said pup.

[Steve]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA.

edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand

the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA .

In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

Steve sorry for those non-genetically inclined what does that mean?

That theoretically a lab dad and a poodle mum could have the same 'strain' of PRA?

Also why do they have to be registered to be tested?

But a cav and a poodle cant as they don't have the same "strain" for want of a better word?

Just curious

Yep thats it - Labs and mini and toy poodles have the same type of PRA so their puppies can get it because both can be affected or carriers .Cav and mini or toy poodle have a different type of PRA so their puppies could be carriers of both but not affected.

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

[Quickasyoucan]

Steve:

You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA.

You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool:

Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA.

edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand

the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA .

In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

Steve sorry for those non-genetically inclined what does that mean?

That theoretically a lab dad and a poodle mum could have the same 'strain' of PRA?

Also why do they have to be registered to be tested?

But a cav and a poodle cant as they don't have the same "strain" for want of a better word?

Just curious

Yep thats it - Labs and mini and toy poodles have the same type of PRA so their puppies can get it because both can be affected or carriers .Cav and mini or toy poodle have a different type of PRA so their puppies could be carriers of both but not affected.

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Thanks

[Sheridan]

I think the public's reaction to all this going to be 'how cute'. The pedigree dog community's negative reaction will simply reinforce the notion that we're a bunch of snobs.

I am a snob.

[MalteseLuna]

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues.

I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration.

Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business.

At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this.

[Steve]

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues.

I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration.

Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business.

At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this.

for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ?

Edited September 30, 2011 by Steve

[MalteseLuna]

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues.

I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration.

Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business.

At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this.

for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ?

Yes for that you need to get the DNA collected by a vet, but the dog doesn't have to be registered. This just insures that the dog your testing is the dog who supplied the sample (i.e. no cheating).

There are also "By parentage" certificates - no DNA test done (based on DNA tests of parents), perhaps the dog does need to be registered for this.

[Steve]

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues.

I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration.

Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business.

At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this.

for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ?

Yes for that you need to get the DNA collected by a vet, but the dog doesn't have to be registered. This just insures that the dog your testing is the dog who supplied the sample (i.e. no cheating).

There are also "By parentage" certificates - no DNA test done (based on DNA tests of parents), perhaps the dog does need to be registered for this.

I dont remember what made me believe you needed a dog to be registered - it was a while ago. Either way according to GTG there are no DNA tests available for cavs anyway.

[Bullbreedlover]

I think the public's reaction to all this going to be 'how cute'. The pedigree dog community's negative reaction will simply reinforce the notion that we're a bunch of snobs.

I am a snob.

yyyeeeppp X 2

I am just so happy they didnt choose an Australian Bulldog. That would of been devastating.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Bullbreedlover

[LizT]

the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues.

I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration.

Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business.

At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this.

for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ?

Yes for that you need to get the DNA collected by a vet, but the dog doesn't have to be registered. This just insures that the dog your testing is the dog who supplied the sample (i.e. no cheating).

There are also "By parentage" certificates - no DNA test done (based on DNA tests of parents), perhaps the dog does need to be registered for this.

I would think that Microchipping would cover any question of who the animal is these days _Purebred, Registered or otherwise.

[meggie]

That puppy's definitely famous now - made it into the cartoonist's subject list i.e. Andrew Dyson's 'The cavoodle that grew"

Saw it here: http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/honouring-the-police-who-died-on-duty-20110930-1l1h1.html

[MalteseLuna]

I would think that Microchipping would cover any question of who the animal is these days _Purebred, Registered or otherwise.

It does sort-of - but when collecting a sample at home you could switch the two swabs/samples. This is why for certified results you need the DNA collected by a vet (or other authorized person. The vet then labels the sample with the microchip number of the dog it was collected from.

[Kirty]

Our brochures for DNA testing include Labradoodles, Cavoodles, Spoodles, etc. We see lots of Spoodles with PRA unfortunately.

[Steve]

Our brochures for DNA testing include Labradoodles, Cavoodles, Spoodles, etc. We see lots of Spoodles with PRA unfortunately.

DNA testing for cavoodles for PRA?