Chris the Rebel Wolf Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Anybody who breeds large quantities of dogs with primary regard to profit and secondary to nil regard to dog wellbeing and the betterment of the breed as a whole. That is my definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Rebel Wolf Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 http://www.news.com.au/national/prime-minister-julia-gillard-to-receive-a-cavoodle-puppy-from-partner-tim-mathieson-for-50th-birthday/story-e6frfkvr-1226150415252 Quote from that article: "They get stuck in to their breakfast which is home-made meatloaf mixed with milk powder" I feel sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I've been reading the comments on these stories, trying to take the perspective of Joe Public, who has no particular axe to grind in the dog world. I'd encourage others to play this game before mouthing off. The dog community on display in these debates looks petty, fractious, and sour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Rebel Wolf Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Can anybody tell me reliably, how many [parent] dogs are kept by Billabong Creek farm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) A Golden Retriever called Abbey.....and no-one objected to that!! :D That's probably because people don't know where it came from. The puppy farm, where Krudd got his dog from, also sell....Shitese! :rofl: Now that is sad. Presumably a Shi Tzu x Maltese? Grow up! making fun of names is appropriate to 10 yr olds, not adults. Please include some substance if you have a beef with someone's position. Who gives a hoot if Kevin Rudd bought a GR from a kennel that also sells some other breed or cross breed. If I put on my economic justice hat, I could probably knock you pretty bad for something . . . buying gasoline from a nasty petroleum producer, buying wood from a company that buys unsustainably produced timber, buying coffee from some source that screws the primary producers, blood diamond in your engagement ring? . . . etc., etc., etc.. I hesitate to say this on a purebreed forum, but my experience in running a boarding kennel is that the Shi Tzu x Maltese is a particularly successful F1 hybrid. They tend to be healthy and be a bit more moderate in temperament than either of the parent breeds. I don't advocate cross breeding. But I do object to pure breed enthusiasts making fools of themselves by making fun of things that the broader public doesn't see as a problem. If you're going to criticize, please do so responsibly, with substance. Pre-adolescent humour doesn't help a policy debate. (I'm considering taking on another personna .. . 'wet blanket' . . . a wet blanket is what some of these little flare ups call for). Edited September 29, 2011 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 http://www.news.com....r-1226150415252 Quote from that article: "They get stuck in to their breakfast which is home-made meatloaf mixed with milk powder" I feel sick. Why? Sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Chill out sandgrubber- one thing for someone to take a crack at a public figure but you have to play by the rules here too. No personal attacks .if you dont play the game properly the unpire will send you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Anybody who breeds large quantities of dogs with primary regard to profit and secondary to nil regard to dog wellbeing and the betterment of the breed as a whole. That is my definition. But thats not mine nor is it the agreed definition by every single group who attended the round table and agreed to fight it so where does that leave us ? You think Im fighting to stop your derfinition of a puppy farm - I think you are fighting mine. We fight together and if new regs and new laws come in who will they be legislating against - yours or mine or the 198 in between? . Life would be so much easier if we had a definition or at least some new terminology we could all agree on. But its still groundhog day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I just saw Julia and Tim on the ABC news, talking about their new puppy - which they're getting in "a few weeks"...so they still have time to change their minds and buy a rescue dog. It sounded like she said "caboodle" Well whatever dog she gets I'm sure it will be a happy little dog living in a forever home....I just really, really wish it wasn't coming from somewhere that breeds a large amount of overpriced puppies. But as has often been stated here what constitutes a "large amount"??? If you hire and pay staff to attend to the needs, both emotional and physical of the dogs does that not make it okay? Is it better to buy from a "one person show" where the breeder clearly is run off his/her feet and doesn't have enough time for the animals?? Where is the 'accepted definition", where is the line in the sand? Meanwhile let us all continue to try to do the 'right' thing by OUR charges, pets, working, show dogs or otherwise. Even small differences make big changes. One thing IS or sure...whatever dog Julia gets it going to cause a "Kerfluffle" !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Well, Julia just said on the 3pm news, that Tim had arranged to get her a Poodle in a few weeks time. Interesting....did you hear clearly? Poodle...cavoodle sound very similar. ETA Tony Abbott did call her a mincing poodle ;) No, it was Julia who called Christopher Pyne a "mincing poodle" - easy enough to check these things before posting Owww... You're right Am I bad! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Aahh, that is the question isn't it? I would think that if a place is being run for the keeping and breeding of animals for commercial purposes then it is a farm. So if the 'farm' animals happen to be dogs does that make it a puppy farm? I guess in the strict sense of the word it does. If it is kept clean and tidy and complying with all the relevant rules and regulations then it is a perfectly legal business and attacking the 'farmers' just makes us look like fanatics in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know the answer to the question to be honest, it's a bit like - what is a backyard breeder? i think oscar law/animal rights groups are going down the line of they are dirty places and they don't look after their dogs, we in here are going on about breeding blindly not doing health testing. some puppy farms are clean and appear to be looking after their dogs and have staff etc etc. trainers are taking the line that dogs can't and don't get enough socialisation and stimulation required to produce a well rounded dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Oodles can have up to 69 different coat combinations and all of the other genes can mean thousands of different combinations in every dog which makes it impossible to predict what management requirements will be needed as every single dog will be different . Some families can live with any dog of any type but being able to predict what a dog will need to remain healthy and happy and match that to what suits you and your lifestyle means there is less risk that either you or the dog will not be able to live together as happily as possible for ever after. It seems rather a wasted effort to put in time and energy and ask yourself what type of dog best suits my lifestyle and then choose one which is not able to be predicted. Because of the volume of puppies bred ,commercial breeders sometimes see their stud animals as stock and there is a higher risk that there is no post sale support or that they are as motivated to be sure that the dog is suited to the buyer’s lifestyle. The need to cover costs and make profits can create a higher than average potential to see a compromise on testing and husbandry issues. i think this is a very good definiation and this is what i've been trying to say all along in my long drawn out ramblings on. Steve said: the chances that her pup will get PRA is remote - different dna tests for each breed and you need at least two carriers of the same recessive - not likely im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that based on my experience with recessive the mongrel thing that it is, for instance, dealing with patella luxation for about 20 plus years now and it is relatively easy to have but one dog in the bloodline on either side to be effected then it can be expressed in the pups not all but one and it happens to be the one you want to keep! i should explain that in order to get a recessive come through and be expressed, both sides of the bloodline or family need to have the gene - if there is one dog on one side of the pedigree/family affected then it cannot be expressed. i think it is highly unlikely myself that these crosses from goodness knows where would have both sides of the family sound given that its an uphill battle with known generations and still getting dogs with genetic problems on the odd occassion and moving into pedigrees that you don't know and is possible to research and test. give example for years, i only bred 0 to 0 and because only one side that i knew right back to 5 gen was sound the other side didn't matter so for about 15 yrs (yes its unbelievable i know but it did happen) we didn't get any higher grades than zero even checking dogs at 10-12 years old, other breeders said we were talking crap but we'd get them checked regularly by several vets not just one. anyway about 3 years ago we had a one pup litter and that pup developed grade 3 patella lux in one leg. the other was sound as a bell. tracked back and found the affending dogs that had been stuck into the pedigree through videos and photos and older breeders accounts. so patella lux is fairly common though it just begs the question whether PRA and heart problems in cockerspaniels, poodles and the other breeds they use to cross is also common enough to be able to have it on both sides of the family, i know that poodles can suffer from patella lux and also HD? so there is lots of genetic problems that all those breeds can suffer from and if they are not screening these farmers which i don't think they'd bother given that it takes alot of time and money and it cuts into their profit margin when they can just produce any cross from any dog and get $1800 for them from people who also have no idea how to produce a healthy dog. anyway thats what my mother and me have dealt with for 20 plus years and we still not there its a hit and miss thing with recessives. so in my heart i know farmers wouldn't be doing all that we do, no way in hell. Edited September 30, 2011 by toy*dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 My understanding is that PA is at least polygenic and could well be a high degree of environmental - along the lines of HD so crossing breeds prone to either can bring a whole heap of polygenic causes together and they don't all have to be identical to cause a problem (I know that's not a scientific explanation) PRA is simple recessive but the recessive is not necessarily the same in all breeds as I understand it so you would need to get the same recessive from two different breeds to have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Most of the dogs that I have seen with PRA are lab/poodle crosses. It is much rarer these days in pure labs and poodles because most breeders are doing the right thing and testing the parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) My understanding is that PA is at least polygenic and could well be a high degree of environmental - along the lines of HD so crossing breeds prone to either can bring a whole heap of polygenic causes together and they don't all have to be identical to cause a problem (I know that's not a scientific explanation) do you mean PL? or LP as some call it or there's other names as well. yes to a certain degree it can be pologenic as well but recessive in my experience is much stronger. for instance, i have treated my dogs all the same but some can end up with grade 4 (one of our first bitches had grade 4 from another breeder so she was desexed and not bred from despite breeder telling me to breed it out, cannot be bred out) some dogs can end up being sound and that is well into their old age as well. (keep testing). so some breeders use pure pologenic as an excuse to breed said dog saying it did its knee in and the dog just chooses to walk like that!! one breeder kept saying that about all their dogs that clearly had PL (can sometimes see it in gait but most cases you have to check dog or get a vet to check and grade) some breeders convince themselves its not hereditary so breed it into the lines then you get recessive and in some cases very strong too. done experiments and to a certain degree PL can be controlled but not cured from stable exercise and also diet and good enviroment but the dog still has PL as graded and this is the problem not many breeders are grading and still using dogs as in toys and i've bred other breeds of toys it is very common. think i may have hijacked this thread but i'm trying to highlight the fact that farmers would find it difficult but they tell pollies and councils and buyers that they have sound dogs which given my experience would be highly unlikely. Edited September 29, 2011 by toy*dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Most of the dogs that I have seen with PRA are lab/poodle crosses. It is much rarer these days in pure labs and poodles because most breeders are doing the right thing and testing the parents. most breeders as in, reg breeders? not farmers with crosses i presume thats what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) My understanding is that PA is at least polygenic and could well be a high degree of environmental - along the lines of HD so crossing breeds prone to either can bring a whole heap of polygenic causes together and they don't all have to be identical to cause a problem (I know that's not a scientific explanation) PRA is simple recessive but the recessive is not necessarily the same in all breeds as I understand it so you would need to get the same recessive from two different breeds to have a problem. i don't know about that unless there is some literature around that has proven that to be the case, has anyone proven that with results? you'd have to breed crosses to find out i suppose but i believe myself that my understanding is PRA is PRA there's not all different types of the one disease so 2 dogs on 2 sides of the family have PRA regardless of their breed bang then you get it expressed in one pup or several pups. maybe someone would be able to shed more light on this. Edited September 29, 2011 by toy*dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Well for what its worth I think we should start minding our own business.Rather than trying constantly to find things to make "them "look bad and tell everyone why we are better than them and we are breeding dogs better than them, healthier than them, more socialised than them ,cleaner than them etc we should stop being so defensive and start educating people on what we do and why we do it .We can do this without having to make them look bad and by simply demonstrating that what we do is different and why. We can make our dogs look great without needing to make them look bad. We can respect that we are all different and some will be good with a rescue , some wont, some will be able to live with any breed or cross breed some wont . Some breeders suck and regardless of what they breed or how many they muck it up . Some of these think they do a great job. Some rescuers suck and regardless of what they rescue or how many they muck it up. Some of these think they do a great job. Some owners suck and will always see a dog as a throw away or that their dogs are special and dont need to be kept under control or teach them manners. We need to talk about why we choose a purebred dog and how important we think it is to be able to predict management issues,we need to explain why we breed papered dogs and what advantages that gives us and the owners and the dogs .We need to show case our owners of the pets we breed every bit as much as any champs we breed. Rescue needs to talk about why they follow certain policies and procedures and show case the families who own their animals. By doing this we educate other breeders, rescues and owners, we work together for a common goal - less unwanted or suffering - we focus on how we can learn and do a better job and entice new people to join us and breed smaller numbers and sell to people who have the opportunity to see why we do what we do. We need to work more closely with trainers and other canine professionals.We need to research and collect real data so when we do say something to tell the world what is a preferrable situation we have the goods to back it up. We dont need new laws or new regs - unless they take some away that are there and while we are constantly hearing about terrible breeders and terrible rescue we dont get a chance to focus on the great stuff and achievements of those who really are getting it right. Puppy farmers who keep their dogs in rotten conditions and who dont give them the things they need should be charged and punished and if anyone is aware of anyone doing that - owners, rescue, breeders no matter how many they have report them and allow the process to deal with them . There are laws in place to ensure this can be done no law is going to stop people breeding based on their motivations, numbers, or breeds . Right now Im in the middle of the awards and that gives me the opportunity to hear the most amazing stories about people who should be the ones under the spotlight to allow people to see what the good guys are doing.i read what they do and speak with them and I cry and wonder why everyone doesnt know this stuff - why dont they? The best way to show what should be done is to create role models and show people what they should be looking for and shine a light on the advantages for people who do these things and those who take the animals they place in new homes etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Most of the dogs that I have seen with PRA are lab/poodle crosses. It is much rarer these days in pure labs and poodles because most breeders are doing the right thing and testing the parents. According to our health survey and that we are talking about a poddle cross cav and PRA the chances are remote that PRA would be a problem. However SM, mitrio valve desease, luxating patellas - high risk. Higher risk than in a purebred pup whose parents have been tested. It can however have up to 69 different coat combinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black Obsession Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Chill out sandgrubber- one thing for someone to take a crack at a public figure but you have to play by the rules here too. No personal attacks .if you dont play the game properly the unpire will send you off. I agree. That was a personal attack and uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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