poodlefan Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Pups whelped and raised in 'commerical' settings that don't get a lot of human contact in their first three weeks can be wary of strangers for life. Ideal family dogs are whelped and raised in family homes, not sheds. Pups raised in sheds are big question marks on temperament because no one sees them enough to know what they're like and a buyers best measure of temperament (the pups mother) is not seen by them. That's a message that has research to back it and that could be flogged hard without denigrating any crossbred dog. Best not to be elitist in our arguments and facts are that purebred dogs also get produced in such settings with the same results. Got a reference for that ? UQ Study touches on it but let me hunt for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montall Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 just noted looking at the facebook page of BCF that he has indeed removed his comments, smart move eh. however, i have a screen shot of what he actually said to me and others. Uumh, the conversation I was reading was between someone called Debbie something or other and the owners (I think) of the place, and it was Debbie who had the potty mouth. So ... did the owners remove similar comments from them and leave hers there? If that's the case, that's not playing fair, it leaves Debbie looking like a total nutjob and them reasonable. I have to say if that's what happened they did a good job of the editing, just leaving enough responses (and her ranting about them not responding) to make it look genuine. I might go back and see if I can find it (if it's still there) and maybe PM it to you. oh okay i knew debbie met her on facebook from that page, she was one of the people i was talking to privately and yes some of the things she says is really bad i know but he was responding to her in the same manner and sometimes worse. but this is going back about 3-4 months ago now im talking about, i didn't seem to see him talking now he's shutup. but yes it would look like she's a nutjob if he has removed his own responses. Oh ok, this conversation took place on 25th September so obviously he has learned to keep his side of it calm, probably no editing required. Pity Debbie can't do the same because while she has a good argument she loses all credibility (as do we all) when it degenerates down to name calling and bad language. I hate puppy mills with a vengeance, but sadly over reactions to what we perceive as a puppy mill, but others see as a perfectly legal commercial enterprise, do more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Pups whelped and raised in 'commerical' settings that don't get a lot of human contact in their first three weeks can be wary of strangers for life. Ideal family dogs are whelped and raised in family homes, not sheds. Pups raised in sheds are big question marks on temperament because no one sees them enough to know what they're like and a buyers best measure of temperament (the pups mother) is not seen by them. That's a message that has research to back it and that could be flogged hard without denigrating any crossbred dog. Best not to be elitist in our arguments and facts are that purebred dogs also get produced in such settings with the same results. Got a reference for that ? OK, here we go The domestic dog: its evolution, behaviour, and interactions with people By James Serpell notes higher levels of 'problem' and fearful behaviours in pups not whelped in domestic environments (try page 89-91) You can read it online. Behavioural effects of differential early experience in the dog M.W. Foxa, D. Stelznera Scott and Fuller seem to be the most frequently quoted authors on this. ETA: Eureka.. found it. Link to abstract Edited September 29, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Oh ok, this conversation took place on 25th September so obviously he has learned to keep his side of it calm, probably no editing required. Pity Debbie can't do the same because while she has a good argument she loses all credibility (as do we all) when it degenerates down to name calling and bad language. I hate puppy mills with a vengeance, but sadly over reactions to what we perceive as a puppy mill, but others see as a perfectly legal commercial enterprise, do more harm than good. yep agreed. i got out of it all when they started with the name calling it got a bit violent there for a while. i don't believe you have to reduce yourself to that level that you name call steve's right we lose all credibility when we start doing that stuff much better to arm ourselves with proven facts and experience that way. however, debbie and the others aren't reg breeders so i really had to watch it because i was mixing myself up in that group and like or not i ended up being representative of all reg breeders in the eyes of the public and also to those type of people who are owners of that facebook page so i think it was a good choice to get out and deactivate. Edited September 29, 2011 by toy*dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Pups whelped and raised in 'commerical' settings that don't get a lot of human contact in their first three weeks can be wary of strangers for life. Ideal family dogs are whelped and raised in family homes, not sheds. Pups raised in sheds are big question marks on temperament because no one sees them enough to know what they're like and a buyers best measure of temperament (the pups mother) is not seen by them. That's a message that has research to back it and that could be flogged hard without denigrating any crossbred dog. Best not to be elitist in our arguments and facts are that purebred dogs also get produced in such settings with the same results. Got a reference for that ? UQ Study touches on it but let me hunt for it. I havent seen any which gives much on up to three wekks but lots after 3 weeks . Most breeders would handle them a little before 3 weeks when they are checking them and cleaning etc but they are born blind and deaf so its very limited even when they are in the middle of your house. there are loads of studies though that talk about puppy socialisation over 21 days - gotta remember when they talk socialisation they are also talking staying with Mum and the litter as well as humans http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/133/3457/1016.short http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Added the article link I found to my last post Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Pups whelped and raised in 'commerical' settings that don't get a lot of human contact in their first three weeks can be wary of strangers for life. Ideal family dogs are whelped and raised in family homes, not sheds. Pups raised in sheds are big question marks on temperament because no one sees them enough to know what they're like and a buyers best measure of temperament (the pups mother) is not seen by them. That's a message that has research to back it and that could be flogged hard without denigrating any crossbred dog. Best not to be elitist in our arguments and facts are that purebred dogs also get produced in such settings with the same results. Got a reference for that ? OK, here we go The domestic dog: its evolution, behaviour, and interactions with people By James Serpell notes higher levels of 'problem' and fearful behaviours in pups not whelped in domestic environments (try page 89-91) You can read it online. Behavioural effects of differential early experience in the dog M.W. Foxa, D. Stelznera Scott and Fuller seem to be the most frequently quoted authors on this. ETA: Eureka.. found it. Link to abstract thank you. Ill have a better look later when I have more time. that abstract talks about it between 3 and 6 months doesnt it - unless I rushed through and missed something.Ill go back later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postal Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 My first post here so hi! But I am honestly shocked she didn't end up with a Bulldog like her teams mascot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Well, Julia just said on the 3pm news, that Tim had arranged to get her a Poodle in a few weeks time. Interesting....did you hear clearly? Poodle...cavoodle sound very similar. ETA Tony Abbott did call her a mincing poodle ;) No, it was Julia who called Christopher Pyne a "mincing poodle" - easy enough to check these things before posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 thank you. Ill have a better look later when I have more time. that abstract talks about it between 3 and 6 months doesnt it - unless I rushed through and missed something.Ill go back later It talks about the maternal environment too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I was at the Oscars Law rally last week and listened while a Labour MP touted that the Labour Government were committed to shutting down puppy farms. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black Obsession Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) I just saw Julia and Tim on the ABC news, talking about their new puppy - which they're getting in "a few weeks"...so they still have time to change their minds and buy a rescue dog. It sounded like she said "caboodle" ETA ...a rescue dog or a dog from an ANKC registered breeder. Sorry, I forgot to include this earlier. Edited September 29, 2011 by Black Obsession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montall Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Aahh, that is the question isn't it? I would think that if a place is being run for the keeping and breeding of animals for commercial purposes then it is a farm. So if the 'farm' animals happen to be dogs does that make it a puppy farm? I guess in the strict sense of the word it does. If it is kept clean and tidy and complying with all the relevant rules and regulations then it is a perfectly legal business and attacking the 'farmers' just makes us look like fanatics in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know the answer to the question to be honest, it's a bit like - what is a backyard breeder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 But what is a puppy farm? Aahh, that is the question isn't it? I would think that if a place is being run for the keeping and breeding of animals for commercial purposes then it is a farm. So if the 'farm' animals happen to be dogs does that make it a puppy farm? I guess in the strict sense of the word it does. If it is kept clean and tidy and complying with all the relevant rules and regulations then it is a perfectly legal business and attacking the 'farmers' just makes us look like fanatics in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know the answer to the question to be honest, it's a bit like - what is a backyard breeder? We are still stuck in ground hog day. According to the RSPCA Australia a puppy farm is a place which breeds dogs in substandard conditions.Their motivations, their numbers or how many they breed dont count - problem is there are about 200 definitions and everyone who wants to shut down puppy farms has a different idea of what that is - so when I say shut down puppy farms then some people think I mean non registered breeders, or commercial breeder or any of the other approx 198 definitions .We end up being lumped in with the rednecks, crimminals a loonies who have no credibility so it impacts on ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Hey Raz you are spot on re the flag protocol. Makes it even worse that the PM is attached to the story. Yes that's what I thought, Nic. If it had just been a puppy shot on a breeder's website I wouldnt have thought anything of it, but her name and the office of PM attached to it for the purposes of promoting something - looks really bad, doesnt it. Hi Raz I am one of those "activist nutjobs" We rescue puppy farm dogs (and others) - I have seen it all . I have seen the trauma, the damage beyond belief to a dogs mental state after years of confinement, and the disease and ill health. Fortunately we rehabilitate and rehome. I personally think it is a slap in the face for the MDBA and all ethical registered breeders who promote healthy purebred dogs. It is also a slap in the face for breed rescue and rescue in general. The purchase of this puppy reeks of total ignorance,lack of education, and irreverence to the plight of thousands of dogs pts each year. It doesnt feel to me that our face has been slapped. I dont see why if some people choose a cross bred that its our failure. I choose purebreds and I promote my reasons for that but it doesnt bother me if someone wants to own a cross bred mutt. Im not sure they would qualify for one of our member's pups anyway as we like ours to go to homes where families have time to spend with them and they are stable. Nor do I think its a slap in the face for rescue as some people like me wouldnt consider a rescue dog . Having compassion and caring about the amount of dogs being PTS each year doesnt always have to equate to being prepared to take one into your home. I dont care what sort of dog anyone else owns or wants to breed as long as their dogs dont suffer and in all honesty I cant see why I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 A Golden Retriever called Abbey.....and no-one objected to that!! :D That's probably because people don't know where it came from. The puppy farm, where Krudd got his dog from, also sell....Shitese! :rofl: Now that is sad. Presumably a Shi Tzu x Maltese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfin Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I've got three words for you, Julia: Progressive Retinal Atrophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I've got three words for you, Julia: Progressive Retinal Atrophy the chances that her pup will get PRA is remote - different dna tests for each breed and you need at least two carriers of the same recessive - not likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyWal Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I have a friend going through PRA with his rescue greyhound.Absolutley devastating for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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