Bob-tail Boxer Articles

[sandgrubber]

I came across a set of articles written by the breeder who introduced the bob-tail gene into UK boxers. It seems worth providing links to these as they are informative and a good contribution to the 'purity' debate.

Here's an extract from the 'reflections on past progress article of 7/7/2000

REFLECTIONS ON PAST PROGRESS

The study was conceived about 10 years ago. In part it was started as an academic exercise to see how feasible it might be to transfer a gene from one breed to another. But, given the probability that docking would eventually be banned in the UK, as was already happening in other countries, the bob-tail gene was specifically selected because of its potential practical application. The "recipient" breed was my own breed, the Boxer. The bob-tail "donor" was the Pembroke Welsh Corgi.

I have often been asked over the years, "Why use a Corgi, which is such a different breed?" In truth I had never thought or worried about this. In the series of backcrosses planned, it should not matter what I started with. Unwanted characteristics of whatever nature would all be diluted out, generation by generation. Of more practical significance was the fact that Peggy Gamble of Blands Corgi fame and the late Patsy Hewan (Stormerbanks Corgis) had earlier asked me to investigate the inheritance of the bob-tail condition in the breed. This proved to be that of a single dominant gene, a finding that potentially made transfer into another breed relatively simple. Beyond this, it was fortuitous that the two main characteristics of the Corgi that I did not want, the longer coat and the short legs, were also inherited as dominants relative to the Boxer very short coat and long legs. This meant that once avoided in any generation, they would be gone forever. Nevertheless, quite apart from these two gene s, I was hugely surprised at just how easy it was to get back to Boxer appearance by repeated crossing to Boxer after the initial Corgi cross.

1. BOBTAIL BOXER ARTICLES - Published in Dog World Magazine (UK)
   • Genetics Can be Fun ....Aug 2, 1996
   • Genetics Can be Fun (cont.) ....Aug 9, 1996
   • Genetics Can be Fun (cont.) ....Sept 13 1996
   • Genetics Can be Fun - Update....Aug 28 1998
   • Reflections on Past Progress....June 30 2000
   • Reflections on Past Progress (cont.)....July 7 2000
   • Postscript....May 4 2001See also .....
     • Bobtail Boxers (plus Questions & Answers).

Edited September 27, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Mim]

I enjoyed reading that, thanks sandgrubber Very interesting.

[Ali]

Great info and good reading, I fully support it.

I wish I had the time, money and knowledge to introduce small natural upright standing ears into a masstiff breed.

So something like crossing a bull terrier with a bullmastiff or the like...maybe one day....

looks like she thought of my idea already but had no interest..

"As to the other possibility of introducing the erect ear gene into the boxer from the Corgi as originally contemplated, I’m afraid this option is no longer available. I have attempted to mate the one bitch retained for the purpose on several occasions but she has always appeared past time when her owners have notified me. Only if the Boxer Breed Council were to be interested in developing erect-eared Boxers would I contemplate starting such a project again."

Edited September 28, 2011 by Ali

[Maxiewolf]

Love these articles, And I fully support it, and to be honest... I don't think we ever should "stop" developing our breeds. I know that breeding to the standards is one thing, but our beloved breeds where developed by generations of picking the desirable traits. I really think more showcasing of this type of thing needs to be done.

All these ByB's who think slapping two dogs together and calling it "breed-of-stupidname" have nothing on real DESIGN!

Would love to see someone take up this kind of project in dobermann's, and also I mean look at the lovely work of the Dalmatians which was done purely for health. Love genetics ^_^

[WillowGirl]

Great read, I love genetics. Maybe a bit off topic, but the dogs from the first cross - Boxer x corgi.... I would NEVER have guessed there was any boxer in there at all! If someone here had put that pic up as a 'guess the breed'... boxer would not have even been on my shortlist.....Just goes to show...you never can tell!!!!

[trinabean]

Thanks for posting that Sandgrubber. I find genetics fascinating.

[Ben315]

Very interesting!!! I met a lady who owned 2 bob-tail Boxers. She told me about how they used the gene from the Corgi and bred it into the Boxers. This must be where it started!

[Ali]

Love these articles, And I fully support it, and to be honest... I don't think we ever should "stop" developing our breeds. I know that breeding to the standards is one thing, but our beloved breeds where developed by generations of picking the desirable traits. I really think more showcasing of this type of thing needs to be done.

All these ByB's who think slapping two dogs together and calling it "breed-of-stupidname" have nothing on real DESIGN!

Would love to see someone take up this kind of project in dobermann's, and also I mean look at the lovely work of the Dalmatians which was done purely for health. Love genetics ^_^

Hey what would you improve in a doberman? erect ears? :D

[Maxiewolf]

Love these articles, And I fully support it, and to be honest... I don't think we ever should "stop" developing our breeds. I know that breeding to the standards is one thing, but our beloved breeds where developed by generations of picking the desirable traits. I really think more showcasing of this type of thing needs to be done.

All these ByB's who think slapping two dogs together and calling it "breed-of-stupidname" have nothing on real DESIGN!

Would love to see someone take up this kind of project in dobermann's, and also I mean look at the lovely work of the Dalmatians which was done purely for health. Love genetics ^_^

Hey what would you improve in a doberman? erect ears? :D

Exactly the same project as here, the choice to have a long or naturally bobbed tail. Not a huge fan of the Erect ear. And Erect ears on these breeds aren't just a pointed ear... they are "shaped" I've yet to see a pointed ear on any breed look like the kind of ear a crop job produces.

ETA: Erect Ears? Hmmmm no me no think so. Poor boy.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Maxiewolf

[jacqui835]

V. interesting articles - thanks for sharing.

I'm doing my time in the corporate space for now, but when I have the money (and it's not if, it's when - I'm committed lol) I will be personally attempting to develop a doberman as their creator intended for them to be with erect ears (or connecting and collaborating with others looking to do the same). I feel that their tail enhances their agility - I see mine use his when moving at high speeds and as a rudder when swimming, and I use it myself to grab onto lol so I would like to see them keep that. The only thing is, I note that compared to breeds that have always had a tail, the doberman carries his tail high and consequently it's a weapon of mass destruction and pain, so I would like introduce the low carriage tail - like in the german shepherd etc.

Issue is, the bob-tail is dominant, erect ears are not - they are neither dominant nor recessive - so you would need several generations to change that. And how would I maintain all the other traits we so love about our dobies - eg temperament, short coats etc - well I don't know, but it's a goal none the less.

[RubyBlue]

This is a very interesting article.

I am curious how this works with the kennel clubs though. Technically these dogs aren't purebred so how can they and their offspring be bred from and later registered and shown?

[dotdashdot]

This is a very interesting article.

I am curious how this works with the kennel clubs though. Technically these dogs aren't purebred so how can they and their offspring be bred from and later registered and shown?

I believe it is up to individual clubs, I know I saw something/some news about it recently on one of my dal websites, but can't find it now. This website below has a little bit about how the original dal backcross project had some dals pedigreed but then it was taken back...:

http://www.dalmatianclubofcanada.ca/formsetc/backcross.pdf

The original project (for those who may not read the pdf) had only 1 pointer and 31 dalmatians by the fifth gen. The dals currently being bred are 99.9% dalmatian which for the sake of urinary stones - I would happily put up with. I'm lucky to have a female who has a lower risk than males. I love that this project exists.

[The Spotted Devil]

ns_c - just worth noting that your female Dal only has a lower risk of obstruction due to anatomy. However the risk of forming the stones is the same as a male.

[Jed]

This is a very interesting article.

I am curious how this works with the kennel clubs though. Technically these dogs aren't purebred so how can they and their offspring be bred from and later registered and shown?

Genetically, the 4th generation is accepted as pure (any species or breed)

The project by Dr. Cattenach was sanctioned by the UK Kennel Club prior to commencement. The dogs were registered. Many have been exported, some to Australia, and many have been shown successfully. The ANKC also accepted these dogs.

However, I believe the German kennel club has decided not to continue to register the bobtails.

In his writing Dr Cattanech explains how he used ONE corgi gene to breed the bobtail gene into boxers. All other corgi genes were then bred out.

The links Sandgrubber posted - to Dr Cattenach's site - explain it better than I can.

Now docking is banned in Aust and UK, owners/breeders have the choice still of short tailed dogs.

[poodlefan]

V. interesting articles - thanks for sharing.

I'm doing my time in the corporate space for now, but when I have the money (and it's not if, it's when - I'm committed lol) I will be personally attempting to develop a doberman as their creator intended for them to be with erect ears (or connecting and collaborating with others looking to do the same). I feel that their tail enhances their agility - I see mine use his when moving at high speeds and as a rudder when swimming, and I use it myself to grab onto lol so I would like to see them keep that. The only thing is, I note that compared to breeds that have always had a tail, the doberman carries his tail high and consequently it's a weapon of mass destruction and pain, so I would like introduce the low carriage tail - like in the german shepherd etc.

Issue is, the bob-tail is dominant, erect ears are not - they are neither dominant nor recessive - so you would need several generations to change that. And how would I maintain all the other traits we so love about our dobies - eg temperament, short coats etc - well I don't know, but it's a goal none the less.

Tail carriage is very much a function of croup shape.. if you want a low tail, consider whether or not you want the topline a GSD has.

Sorting out Dobe spinal issues might be a useful priority with ramifications beyond the cosmetic. My dogs' chiropractor puts Dobes in the top 3 breeds he sees with skeletal problems.

[melzawelza]

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for posting, Sandgrubber!

[sandgrubber]

I meant to post these in the pinned 'studies about dogs' part of the General but pushed the wrong button. I think they're classics. Does anyone object to re-posting the links in 'Studies about Dogs' to make it easier for people to find them years hence?