lils mum Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 .....Having had a pup I bred undergo an unnecessary GA at 16 weeks old because "Being a Shepherd it most likely has Hip Dysplasia!", by a vet in the ACT, i make sure all owners are now well versed in veterinary scare tactics & I will not hesitate to contact any vet direct that directs another one of my owners to have this done! I keep reading this subject and wondering if there is a proliferation of these diagnoses since PennHIP has become the 'choice' for vets and as more are being confirmed as PennHIP certified? I wonder if the OP knows if the vet involved with their was a PennHIP vet? I know that a Hungarian Vizsla owner in SA was told that the breed has a high incidence of HD (NOT true - Breed average 12)and that they should desex when they PennHIP x-rayed at 16 weeks so that surgery could be done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Thing is, PennHIP x-rays HAVE to be sent to the US for reading. NO VET IN AUST CAN READ PennHIP XRAYS!! They are only certified to take them, NOT read them. So vets taking then saying after looking at them themselves to get the procedure done are misusing the system and doing something they are not certified to do. I have heard of several cases of pups/young dogs being operated on or euthed without the so-called PennHIP x-rays ever being sent for analysis and scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lils mum Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Thing is, PennHIP x-rays HAVE to be sent to the US for reading. NO VET IN AUST CAN READ PennHIP XRAYS!! They are only certified to take them, NOT read them. So vets taking then saying after looking at them themselves to get the procedure done are misusing the system and doing something they are not certified to do. I have heard of several cases of pups/young dogs being operated on or euthed without the so-called PennHIP x-rays ever being sent for analysis and scoring. Which is really a matter for AVA ethics committee surely? Hopefully, people will start to report these perceived issues formally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 I have rung the Vet Clinic involved, they don't have a scanner so can't email, I should have asked if anyone there has a digital camera to photograph the xray, then they could email me. The vet concerned is not on today so I will have to ring back tomorrow, it will be interesting to see if they did PennHipp. Not sure whether that would be in the puppies favour or not. The only advantage would be that the vet is NOT a Specialist reader and as you say the xray need to go to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollipop Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I have heard that the puppy is xrayed and while still under the anaethetic, the vet looks at the xray and decides then and there whether to do the JPS. The puppy is desexed as well to control the genetic aspect of the "problem". The xrays are then sent to the USA for scoring - which is a complete waste of time at that stage. This is just butchering the puppy for no proven reason as well as giving breeders a bad name. Makes me so mad!! The puppy I bred was operated on in the northern suburbs of Sydney so Canberra is not the only problem spot. Espinay, I would love to see your document for your puppy packs. I'm going to draft something before my next litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) Gosh, so sorry about your puppy. Having large breed dogs myself, i know first hand... 'oh that one must have HD because it's a Mastiff'....i'd just had the damn dog hip and elbow scored!!!!! (good results, way below breed av) Or yes it has a limp, must be ED... I hope you get some answers. Espinay i would be very interested in the article you have written for your puppy buyers? Edited September 27, 2011 by HANNAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I am so sorry to read about your pup - bloody disgusting but not surprising . It's not just the large breeds either. Earlier this year I had one of my PUG pup owners email me letting me know that their vet said that the pup had HD so severe that he needed surgery asap, (both hips) - and the cost was around $5000 . I contacted them straight away telling them not to agree to the surgery until they see a specialist and do xrays to confirm HD. Surprise - surprise - there was nothing wrong with that dog apart for some bruising from playing rough with his play mate, a course of pain meds and he has never looked back. This was SE VIC, they never doubted their vet before this but very glad to have got a second opinion from a specialist - so was I. I have lost a lot of faith in vets over the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I am so sorry, Fordogs. Losing a pup is never easy, losing one for such a pointless reason is sad and maddening. I had something similar happen, with an x-spurt grandstanding vet. I now have a clause in my contract that any diagnosis of hereditary problems has to be referred to my vet, and the dog may not be euthed without my express permission .. unless it is critically injured, and then I want to be informed. Unfortunately, I don't have any contracts now - but my solicitor wrote it up for me. I think we all need things like that now. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well, I have received an email from the puppy buyer stating that the original xrays will NOT leave the Vet clinic and as such will not be sent to Roger Lavalle as they are not members of the GSDL so he will not read them!!! (Don't know if this is true, I will have to check). Years ago when I worked in a large city vet practice we regularly sent xrays to Lavalle or Graeme Allan for assessment but if this is true then there are other radiologists that can read them so I will speak to the vet tomorrow. I would like to thank you all for your support with this problem and I hope that in the end We have a great result for all dog owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well then FD, I hope the puppy buyers do NOT expect you to compensate them..what a mess, I'm so sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 What a load of bullocky! We had x-rays read by Roger Lavelle earlier this year, and we certainly aren't members of the GSDL! What a horrible situation, and I feel for you! Sounds like the vet has been in their ears and they are pretty hell bent on not allowing their vet, and their decision, to proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 How sad FD But I too agree its seems to be a growing trend. I sent a Maremma pup home at 8 weeks when it was 10 weeks old I got a call to tell me the vet wanted to do XRAYS on ALL of its joints but he didnt think the problem was HD because he said the hips lined up with spine just fine but felt there must be some other terrible problem because the pup couldnt jump up onto the couch. He tried for a while and then it looked like his back legs collapsed and he sat down. Also he had been taken to an offleash dog park [at 10 weeks] and had been wresting with some other dogs and had a bit of limp in his front leg. I was nice about it and asked how tall the couch was from the ground - 25 cm and I explained that I would never expect a Maremma pup to do that .The owner responded with - well I have friends who have dogs this size and they can jump up that height. So I went through it all and explained about the breed and how I felt that for them to have all of an 11 week old pups joints X rayed because it was a bit sore after wresting with big dogs and not being able to jump up on the couch. I suggested a second opinion before they went ahead with that but he said he felt he should trust his vet who had said large breed dogs usually get joint problems. This was the email I sent through. Thanks for letting me know about what is going on with your pup.Ive never known a Maremma pup to be capable of jumping up onto a 25cm high couch and sometimes when they have had strenuous exercise and different activities at this age they get a bit of muscle soreness for a day or two.This is normal and all you normally need to do is let him rest and don't push him. At this age he shouldn't be walking very far and the breed doesn't need as much exercise as others especially at this age.Normally at this age they are locked into very small areas to bond with the animals they will be working with and they don't run or play or have the opportunity to climb or jump at all until they are about 6 months old.Jumping and chasing etc is discouraged and the breed is expected to not do either. You cant compare him with other breeds or other dogs his size. This breed is different to any other and he is a baby Maremma not a Labrador.Mind you lab breeders would want to discourage a lab pup from going up and down stairs or jumping up on couch's or even going for walks until they are much older too.I still have some of his brothers and sisters here and none of them would be able to get up onto a couch and appear to collapse when they work out they cant.This is normal for this breed.Anyway please keep me informed on any developments but please remember he is a Maremma and be aware that vets are not very experienced with the breed in suburbia and love new puppy owners as its easy to over service them. Since then Ive had two comunications with them and both times I asked about this and both times other questions were answered but not this one - so I have no idea whether they went ahead and had all of his joints Xrayed but it appears whether they did or not the dog is doing well with no symptoms of bad joints . Im just the breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolzseinrotts Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) FD, I feel for you and this horrible situation. Lavelle will read any xray plate for HD and ED, so do not be fooled. I would be getting a digital picture of the plates sent to me, do you have somebody in the area who may be able to help you out should the clinic not be willing to take the digital picture for you. Sounds very sus to me if they aren't willing / won't send on the plates. Edited September 27, 2011 by Stolzseinrotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lils mum Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well, I have received an email from the puppy buyer stating that the original xrays will NOT leave the Vet clinic and as such will not be sent to Roger Lavalle as they are not members of the GSDL so he will not read them!!! (Don't know if this is true, I will have to check). Years ago when I worked in a large city vet practice we regularly sent xrays to Lavalle or Graeme Allan for assessment but if this is true then there are other radiologists that can read them so I will speak to the vet tomorrow. I would like to thank you all for your support with this problem and I hope that in the end We have a great result for all dog owners. Roger Lavelle is still an accredited reader AFAIK, but it may be that they can't be 'officially' read as the dog is less than 12 months old? It's also my understanding that the x-rays, client files, etc always remain the property of the vet practice, so maybe this is why they are refusing to give information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Pull out the "responsible breeder" stand and let them know you need a copy for your own files! You keep accurate records of the dogs you bred and need the xrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 It's also my understanding that the x-rays, client files, etc always remain the property of the vet practice, so maybe this is why they are refusing to give information? The clinic is required to retain the original radiographs for their own records, however there is no reason why the owner could not be provided with a copy to pass on to the breeder. The clinic I work at provides copies of radiographs to clients upon request. Awful situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Today I rung the vet clinic and they gave me a different story, the vet concerned is apparently going to ring me and it sounds like they might be willing to send the x-rays to a specialist ??? Lets wait and see! Lowenhart, I did give them the (I am a responsible breeder and I keep very accurate records of all my litters) Which I do and don't we all??? And yes I do realize that the records remain the property of the vet BUT don't most vets send x-rays away for the experts to read and they are then returned to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdoubleJ Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I'm certainly not agreeing with what has been done but ..... my story Large breed dog, well looked after, after all bought as a show/breeding dog. 7 1/2 months old Didn't have any problems with him - he did pace occassionally but put it down to being easier for him because he is big. He was shown quite a few times and loved it. Went to a show on the Saturday and ran round a few times to warm him up - he appeared to favour rear leg a wee bit so scratched him. Went on Sunday (show other dogs as well) and he was about the same, most of the time looked OK but favoured rear leg occassionally again. Took him to vet on Monday and he was xrayed, he was at the specialist by Thursday and had severe HD in right hip, nothing cna be done, Left hip able to have TPO, major surgery, only possible 1) because of his age, just under 8 months and 2) there was just enought good bone for the plates to attach to. The operation was done the next week - any later and it would have been too bad/late! This all happened 3 months ago - unfortunately he moved suddenly in the first week while he was hobbled and had to have the op all done again ( )We are still taking things very very slowly, he is able to walk for 10 minutes a day now. My whole point of this is that one day (not even 1 week!) he was fine - within 2 weeks he HAD to have major surgery. We have been breeding (not these dogs) for many years and know how to look after dogs but we had no idea that he was in any pain, was uncomfortable and so seriously impaired. He didn't limp at all - just slightly favoured a rear leg! Will be really interested to hear the results of the xrays - hope you get to see them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 AdoubleJ, yes I do know how quickly something like this can come on, even when every dog on a 5 generation pedigree has been x-rayed and is HD free it is posible, (sorry for your puppy ) My problem is with the puppy buyer who in spite of being told to contact me first if they have a problem of ANY kind and they didn't do that, instead they had her euthanized without a second opinion or even consulting me. Had they contacted me prior to euthanizing her I would GLADLY have told them to bring her home to me and I would have refunded their money on the spot. I had lived and loved this puppy for 8 months, I would never have sold her to a family had I thought for 1 minute she had a problem, she had never shown any sign of lameness and had very normal activity (even my vet was horrified when I told them what had happened) and of course I had never envisioned any problems. This person also accused me of having dogs with HD in my pedigree as he had done some research (this I truly know is a lie) so why say such a thing? After only 3 weeks of owning the puppy and emailing me 2 weeks prior, telling me she was fine and getting along well with their young Rottie, wouldn't you be just the slightest bit suspicious especially when they say that they won't agree to a second opinion on the x-rays but are wanting a full refund of puppy and costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I wouldn't be refunding one cent without a copy of the x-rays and a score on them from a qualified radiologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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